One user's very coherent argument in favor of the nMP

Discussion in 'Mac Pro' started by zephonic, Feb 11, 2016.

  1. zephonic, Feb 11, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2016

    zephonic macrumors 65816

    zephonic

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    #1
    With all the haterade regarding the nMP and fear-mongering about Apple's disdain for the "pros" [sic], I thought it would good to share this post from an nMP user over at the gearslutz forum for balance:

    https://www.gearslutz.com/board/11684639-post14.html

    It appears he is a professional film composer. He expresses a few of my own thoughts, but far better than I have done. Further in the thread he also posts about why he ditched RAID in favor of JBOD, among other things.

    Here's what he said:

     
  2. keysofanxiety macrumors 604

    keysofanxiety

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    #2
    Not so much in favour of the nMP, but more for how outdated the old MP was. and why their hand was forced into upgrading.

    If Apple kept the old MP case, but with newer internals, plus the option of Thunderbolt, there wouldn't have been a problem anywhere.
     
  3. zephonic thread starter macrumors 65816

    zephonic

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    #3
    Fair enough.

    I guess it boils down to two things, internal storage, and PCIe. Storage needs are ever increasing so taking it out of the box makes sense as it eliminates physical limitations. Which leaves PCIe. Apple may have jumped the gun there, but I do believe PCIe (or at least user-accessible PCIe) is on its way out.

    So the $64,000 question is whether internal drive bays and PCIe slots are worth switching to Windows for...

    ...and how long they are gonna around there. Imagine switching to Windows and not being able to buy an internally expandable workstation a few years from now...:D
     
  4. satcomer macrumors 603

    satcomer

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    #4
    I will say this again, the nMac Pro will not be updated until USB3.1 and Thunderbolt 3 and the server processor is updated!
     
  5. AJClayton macrumors 6502

    AJClayton

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    #5
    It's nice to hear of someone speaking up for the nMP. That guy makes a lot of sense.

    I've had my nMP for 2 years, almost to the day, and it's the best bit of Apple kit I've owned (and I've run quite a bit of Apple kit in my time). The engineering is incredible. It's quiet, fast and I've been able to choose what expansion options work best for me. I have no regrets about the purchase.

    Completely agree with @satcomer. I've been saying the same thing myself. Apple won't update the nMP until they can update most of the internals all at the same time. It makes perfect business sense to me, and for the vast majority of users there simply wouldn't be that much to gain from just implementing a processor speed bump.
     
  6. AidenShaw macrumors P6

    AidenShaw

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    #6
    The server processor was updated in Q3 of 2014.

    Apple is using processors from Q3 of 2013.
     
  7. AJClayton macrumors 6502

    AJClayton

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    #7
    You're correct, but did you see the point made by me (previous post to yours) and @satcomer?
     
  8. AidenShaw, Feb 11, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2016

    AidenShaw macrumors P6

    AidenShaw

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    #8
    T-Bolt 3 is available as well, plus 10 GbE.

    I saw your point, but disagree.

    Apple could be selling an MP7,1 today (and for many months before today) with
    • 18 cores / 36 threads
    • 256 GiB of 2133 MHz DDR4
    • T-Bolt 3 (with external GPU support)
    • 10 GbE
    • NVMe SSD storage
    That can't be dismissed as merely "a processor speed bump".
     
  9. Mago macrumors 68000

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    #9
    The nMP needs an update when released on 2013 it was barely to outdated before release (and actually Intel was shipping the first Xeon E5v3 when first nMP arrived to his owners.

    Now the fact is that the new portable workstation from lenovo the thinkpad P50 actually is faster than the the 4 core nMP also it's gpu is faster than a single D300.

    It's know the Xeon don't have gained raw speed as evolved just more cores as the E5v4 will be available only from 6 cores it's base model will have the same TDP as the 4 cores it replaces but the single thread speed is barely improved also maybe slower.

    This is annoying while most task could be distributed among multiple threads there are process that can't be paralellized by definition as on many CAD operations that by definition can only be executed in a single thread since all the values and data are carry-on every step.

    I'm not happy in that with Intel, and their announcement also reaffirm how they are convinced about parallelism vs raw processing speed, this is wrong.

    AMD promises much better single thread on its Zen architecture but it's still a promise and maybe will not arrive until next year.
     
  10. ActionableMango, Feb 11, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2016

    ActionableMango macrumors 604

    ActionableMango

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    #10
    Every single advantage quoted in the first post would have also been true if Apple had just updated the tower with Thunderbolt, USB 3.0, Ivy Bridge, etc.

    Plus he could have had:
    • Twice as many of those CPUs that he praises
    • Twice as many memory sticks
    • Continued to use those PCIe solutions he mentions could be done in an expander
    • Kept his internal storage
    • Similar, different, better, cheaper, more, or fewer GPUs
    • etc etc
    I feel like people keep praising things like a faster CPU and Thunderbolt, which are things we would have had anyway, while ignoring what we've lost.

    All I see that we've truly gained is size/heat/fan/noise reduction, all of which is negated anyway for those people with a few or more external boxes.

    Hopefully this is a coherent counterpoint. I've kept this post civil and factual to the best of my ability, not "haterade", and if you reply to me I ask that you do the same.
     
  11. AidenShaw, Feb 11, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2016

    AidenShaw macrumors P6

    AidenShaw

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    #11
    A pair of E5-26xx processors support 24 DIMM slots. (1.5 TiB with 64 GiB DDR4)


    E5-x6xx v3 was introduced in Q3 2014.

    The first MP6,1 deliveries were at the extreme end of 2013.
     
  12. zephonic, Feb 11, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2016

    zephonic thread starter macrumors 65816

    zephonic

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    #12
    All true. Like I said:


    I think this post by VirtualRain really nailed the PCIe situation for Apple, and why they decided to ditch it.
     
  13. poematik13 macrumors 6502a

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    #13
    Regardless of what the hivemind is on this forum, my nMP (6core, d500) has allowed me to let go of technical limitations and take on my projects with ease and freedom, as it literally tears through everything I give it. I recently had a timeline with multiple 2K and 4K prores plates, about "8K" combined amount of pixels at any given time, and it never gave me an issue. It was liberating. The only issue I've had was the graphics card defects (mine was in the spring 2015 bad batch) but they fixed it for me and I'm still covered till 2018 if it happens again, which is around the time I'll be looking at upgrading to whatever new model is out.

    I love this thing, it's small and quiet and insanely fast. I'm so glad I don't have a massive 40LB metal box taking up space in my work area and making all kinds of noise and heat.

    The usual suspects that trash the nMP on this board are basically luddites, or people trying to protect their outdated business models.
     
  14. keysofanxiety macrumors 604

    keysofanxiety

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    #14
    Horse hockey. You're just demonstrating your ignorance for what the counterarguments are actually saying.

    The nMP is a nice machine, but for you to infer that it's either for everybody — or you're a Luddite, because you don't adopt a juxtaposing form factor with open arms — completely invalidates any point you were trying to make, frankly.
     
  15. ActionableMango macrumors 604

    ActionableMango

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    #15
    A well reasoned response, thank you.
     
  16. phrehdd macrumors 68040

    phrehdd

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    #16
    I think your statement is right on the money. Every "plus" commented on about the new Mac Mini Pro (other than size) could have easily been addressed by the original design with a real upgrade. I am happy when the right people with the right software that works well with the nMP find synergy. For the rest of us, its a horribly expensive compromise (which I chose not to buy into).
     
  17. Hank Carter macrumors 6502

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    Oct 1, 2015
    #17
    Generalize much?

    We'll see how great you think a closed system is when you try to sell your nMP in 2018 and the resale value has dropped off a cliff, because almost nothing about it can be upgraded.
     
  18. ApfelKuchen macrumors 68020

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    #18
    Boy, all this passion over "innie" vs. "outie." Sure, Apple could have kept making updated cheese graters. They didn't. Get over it already.

    Different packages for different folks. Personally, If I had a choice (I don't need the power of either the old or new MP, but I supported cheese graters for other people in my company), I'd want the smaller package. Those big boxes had tons of totally unusable, enclosed empty space. They took up a lot of floor space, they wouldn't fit on a desk, and sometimes that remote location demanded things like USB extension cables. They got filthy down on the floor, sucking in more lint and dust than a desktop-mounted machine might. When I had to work on them, I was down on my belly on that floor, under a desk. As others have noted, the fact that it had a few internal drive bays and card slots did not make a big dent in the amount of cables and external gear connected to the thing.

    I seriously doubt Apple would produce two "pro" desktop form factors - the market simply isn't big enough to fragment in that manner. So it is what it is.
     
  19. zephonic thread starter macrumors 65816

    zephonic

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    #19
    I'm not sure that will happen. iMac and Macbook Air/Pro resale value remains strong, even though their upgradeability is limited.

    The 2009-2012 MacPro is an exception rather than the rule, I think. And upgradeability is partly the responsibility of Intel. As long as they switch sockets every other generation, your upgrade path will always be limited.
     
  20. shaunp macrumors 65816

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    #20
    This is the problem. 'Pro's' need loads of storage, and hence the need to move it external. Many of us could do with an SSD for the OS and Apps, and a couple of big drives for our data, in a mirrored pair. A larger case with everything internal suits this need better. There is nothing between the Mini and the nMP to fill this need, and if you say iMac I'll come over there and show you where to shove it. the product range is too narrow and there's nothing in the product range for enthusiasts, which is ironic if you consider where Apple started.
     
  21. SoyCapitanSoyCapitan macrumors 68040

    SoyCapitanSoyCapitan

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    #21
    User accessible PCIE slots are not going anywhere and are about to become even more accessible. The big four gaming PC makers have all come out with PCIE boxes to connect to slim notebooks over Thunderbolt 3 and Nvidia's latest drivers are building better support for hot plugging external GPUs. TB3 is the game changer that will make Thunderbolt popular and make the nMP feasible, but only if OSX supports hot plugging GPUs and other devices. Otherwise you only see these benefits on Windows.
     
  22. AidenShaw macrumors P6

    AidenShaw

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    #22
    Windows has supported hot plug PCI, hot plug memory, and hot add CPUs for a long time. (Some of the big iron vendors support hot remove CPUs, but you have to reboot Windows to remove them.)

    Windows already had all of the plumbing to handle hot plug devices in T-Bolt, it simply works.
     
  23. Hank Carter macrumors 6502

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    #23

    I think people will be able to update the CPU to a certain point. Going from 4/6/8 to 12 cores and slightly newer versions of the XEON that use the same socket. So there is a little room there.

    But the pink elephant in the room is the GPU. Due to the proprietary connector and form factor it will be impossible to upgrade and swapping out fried boards will become a very expensive option.

    Does the SSD also have a proprietary connector or does OWC already offer upgrades?

    Given that I just don't see the nMP being anywhere as long lived as the old cheese grater model and would be surprised if the resale value isn't affected by that.
     
  24. MacVidCards Suspended

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    Hollywood, CA
    #24
    Ahh yes, another "it isn't as limited as it looks, you're using it wrong/not a real pro" thread.

    Or as I have recently liked to see them, "Who are you going to believe, The Gods at Apple, or your lying eyes?"

    People aren't stupid. All those parts cast together in one lot, that was.
     
  25. zephonic thread starter macrumors 65816

    zephonic

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    #25
    Really? Again?
    I'm growing tired of your needless derision and belligerence.

    The thread title should give you a clue as to what is really being said here. You sound like you didn't even bother to read the OP, as Charlie Clouser says nothing about "using it wrong" or "not a real pro" or "Gods at Apple". He simply states the reasons why he decided to go with the nMP.

    Now, people have responded (and disagreed) in a civil and reasonable manner so far, and I'd like to keep it that way. If you can't do the same, I respectfully request that you refrain from posting in this thread. Thank you for your anticipated cooperation.

    And it cuts both ways. This sort of stuff is just flame bait. Let's not do this here, okay?
     

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