Open Letter on the Behalf of "Nice Guys"

bobber205

macrumors 68020
Original poster
Nov 15, 2005
2,182
0
Oregon
(I realize this might not be appropriate for PRSI 100% but I would really like the opinions of the members I know frequent mostly PRSI).

So a couple years ago I first read this post on "Best of Craigslist". Really hit close to home. Really close. :(

Of course I am not angry like this guy just generally disappointed. I want to know what you guys think.

(Original Link)

I see this question posted with some regularity in the personals section, so I thought I'd take a minute to explain things to the ladies out there that haven't figured it out.

What happened to all the nice guys?

The answer is simple: you did.

See, if you think back, really hard, you might vaguely remember a Platonic guy pal who always seemed to want to spend time with you. He'd tag along with you when you went shopping, stop by your place for a movie when you were lonely but didn't feel like going out, or even sit there and hold you while you sobbed and told him about how horribly the (other) guy that you were ****ing treated you.

At the time, you probably joked with your girlfriends about how he was a little puppy dog, always following you around, trying to do things to get you to pay attention to him. They probably teased you because they thought he had a crush on you. Given that his behavior was, admittedly, a little pathetic, you vehemently denied having any romantic feelings for him, and buttressed your position by claiming that you were "just friends." Besides, he totally wasn't your type. I mean, he was a little too short, or too bald, or too fat, or too poor, or didn't know how to dress himself, or basically be or do any of the things that your tall, good-looking, fit, rich, stylish boyfriend at the time pulled off with such ease.

Eventually, your Platonic buddy drifted away, as your relationship with the boyfriend got more serious and spending time with this other guy was, admittedly, a little weird, if you werent dating him. More time passed, and the boyfriend eventually cheated on you, or became boring, or you realized that the things that attracted you to him weren't the kinds of things that make for a good, long-term relationship. So, now, you're single again, and after having tried the bar scene for several months having only encountered players and douche bags, you wonder, "What happened to all the nice guys?"

Well, once again, you did.

You ignored the nice guy. You used him for emotional intimacy without reciprocating, in kind, with physical intimacy. You laughed at his consideration and resented his devotion. You valued the aloof boyfriend more than the attentive "just-a-" friend. Eventually, he took the hint and moved on with his life. He probably came to realize, one day, that women aren't really attracted to guys who hold doors open; or make dinners just because; or buy you a Christmas gift that you mentioned, in passing, that you really wanted five months ago; or listen when you're upset; or hold you when you cry. He came to realize that, if he wanted a woman like you, he'd have to act more like the boyfriend that you had. He probably cleaned up his look, started making some money, and generally acted like more of an ******* than he ever wanted to be.

Fact is, now, he's probably getting laid, and in a way, your ultimate rejection of him is to thank for that. And I'm sorry that it took the complete absence of "nice guys" in your life for you to realize that you missed them and wanted them. Most women will only have a handful of nice guys stumble into their lives, if that.

So, if you're looking for a nice guy, here's what you do:

1.) Build a time machine.
2.) Go back a few years and pull your head out of your ass.
3.) Take a look at what's right in front of you and grab ahold of it.

I suppose the other possibility is that you STILL don't really want a nice guy, but you feel the social pressure to at least appear to have matured beyond your infantile taste in men. In which case, you might be in luck, because the nice guy you claim to want has, in reality, shed his nice guy mantle and is out there looking to unleash his cynicism and resentment onto someone just like you.

If you were five years younger.

So, please: either stop misrepresenting what you want, or own up to the fact that you've ****ed yourself over. You're getting older, after all. It's time to excise the ******** and deal with reality. You didn't want a nice guy then, and he certainly doesn't ****ing want you, now.

Sincerely,

A Recovering Nice Guy
 

mkrishnan

Moderator emeritus
Jan 9, 2004
29,641
12
Grand Rapids, MI, USA
LOL nice. People are always saying there are no good single women/men/whatever they want out there, but the reality is usually that we're blind to the really good options and we go after the ones that aren't good for us. I know I still invest in the wrong women.
 

Gelfin

macrumors 68020
Sep 18, 2001
2,166
4
Denver, CO
In order to make this a proper PRSI thread, here comes the extra-brutality: "Nice Guys" get screwed over because they ask for it, and moreover they usually deserve it. "Nice guy" is a code word for an insecure, passive aggressive, emotionally manipulative leech.

The "jerks" are misogynists who objectify women and use strategies like "charm" and being "interesting" and maybe stuff they learned via some horrible "fast pick-up" technique, and they suck because it's all bull****.

The "nice guys" are misogynists who objectify women… as victims, and victims too stupid to see the "obvious" truth that she ought to be giving it up to the "nice guy" instead. He's the guy so insecure about what he has to offer that all he really thinks he has going for him is not being some other guy entirely, and his ability to treat women like he doesn't deserve them, because he really thinks he doesn't (and somehow it isn't supposed to be insulting to her that he expects her to "come around" and condescend to be with him). His strengths are being "agreeable" and "present," and being a spineless, obsequious weasel is his sleazy pick-up technique. And it's still all bull****.

But it is bull**** that dumps all the pressure over whether things work out or not squarely onto her shoulders, because his fragile little ego can't bear the load. He's whatever she wants him to be, and thus his fluttering little heart is in her hands to crush. If he doesn't get what he wants, which is truthfully exactly the same thing the charming pick-up artist wants, one way or another it's some psychological malfunction on her part.

What the "nice guy" routine communicates to women is this: "I'm too weak to stand up for myself and make a move, but when you're done being stupid, I'll be hovering over your shoulder waiting for my opportunity to swoop in and get my turn, and by the way, you know damned well I'm here, so you're kind of a bitch for letting me do it." You charmer you.

And the ones who get all self-righteous and bitter about how badly "women" (because they're all of one mind, you see) treat "nice guys" are really in a sense just showing their true colors: she's just another stupid bitch who won't give it up. It's misogyny just as surely as she gets from the guys you think you're "rescuing" her from.

And the unseemly truth is, in the rare cases that the "nice guy" lands his princess, he generally fares no better on the "don't be a jerk" scale than the jerks. Solicitous courting, he's got that down, but being a fun and attentive boyfriend? By definition the "nice guy" typically hasn't thought that far ahead. Like the pick-up artist, the problem he is trying to solve does not extend beyond sealing the deal. Sure "the deal" for jerks is just getting some, but "the deal" for nice guys is often a "happily ever after" that's every bit as shallow, except for the part where it's hypothetically forever with a spineless toady, and furthermore, however much trouble the "nice guy" has admitting it, it's just as much about getting some for him too.

The jerks' bull**** was at least charming and interesting rather than insecure and smothering, and when it turns out it's bull****, it's over, not months of trying to figure out how to escape without utterly destroying someone who is pointedly convinced she is his very last shot at happiness, and who will play that pathos, and subtle reminders of "all he's done for her," to the hilt to keep her reeled in.

Your big disadvantage as a "nice guy" is only that your bull**** is patently obvious right from the start.

If you consider yourself a "nice guy" in the sense that you believe always gets crapped on, the first thing to do is to sack up and acknowledge that it's you. The same thing happens to you over and over again with every hapless woman you adhere yourself to, and yet you convince yourself you aren't the problem but every woman in the world is? How delusional is that? Go to a mirror, look yourself in the eye and say "you do not know how to attract girls and you don't think you are worthy to." You already believe it, so just repeat it until you stop making excuses for yourself and acknowledge you are the problem. It's twelve-step for nice guys.

Face the ugly truth: you might never work out how to talk to women. You might never feel worthy. At what point does that magically become their problem, and how fair is it for you to try to insinuate yourself into any woman's life when your own house is so desperately out of order?

You don't have to become the pick-up artist. You don't have to be the abusive, drunk womanizer you bitterly assert women are too stupid not to be attracted to. All you have to do is have a spine, to live without external validation, and to live without bull****. Just doing that, even if you never work out how to be all smooth and charming, will give you a huge leg up over the drowning-in-molasses experience you offer now.

It's ****ing hard. Dauntingly hard. Seemingly (and perhaps actually) insurmountably hard, but that doesn't make it any less the problem you're stuck with. The more you try to wrap your ego in excuses for what you feel incapable of doing, the harder you're going to fail.

Sincerely,

A Real Recovering Nice Guy
 

citizenzen

macrumors 65816
Mar 22, 2010
1,433
11,628
In order to make this a proper PRSI thread, here comes the extra-brutality: "Nice Guys" get screwed over because they ask for it, and moreover they usually deserve it.
Well said. I hope the recovery is progressing "nicely".
 

Gelfin

macrumors 68020
Sep 18, 2001
2,166
4
Denver, CO
Well said. I hope the recovery is progressing "nicely".
Oh, I mean "recovering" in mostly the same sense as an alcoholic who hasn't had a drop in fifteen years. Still no Cassanova me, but I get by, and the "friend zone" is a memory so distant it doesn't even make enough sense anymore for me to really do justice to how stupid an idea it is.
 

Heilage

macrumors 68030
May 1, 2009
2,592
0
*snip*

A Real Recovering Nice Guy

Damn, boy. You're more bitter than me. I had thought that impossible.


Anyway, both wall of texts have a point. I was a nice guy, who got girls. Don't ask me how. I still don't get how I get them.
 

leekohler

macrumors G5
Dec 22, 2004
14,162
19
Chicago, Illinois
Gelfin got it right. I get tired of hearing "nice guys" whine.

Hey "nice guys"- guess what? You don't get what you want because you never ask for it! And really- you kind of get off on not getting what you claim to want. You'd rather complain and whine about it than do something about it.

So get off your asses and tell that person you're being "nice" to that you want to bang the s*** out of her on a somewhat regular basis. Otherwise, you're using her as much as she's using you.
 

dmr727

macrumors G3
Dec 29, 2007
8,623
25
NYC
The 'nice guy' is the male version of the girl that sleeps around to get attention from the boys. She's trying to give the guys what she thinks they want, without regard to her personal needs. The 'nice guys' are doing the same thing, but with the gender roles reversed.

Man the hell up, have a little self respect, and drop the made-for-Lifetime I'll always be here for you BS. That doesn't mean you have to be a dick, but you'll find that a little self confidence will go a looooong way with the ladies.


I was the 'nice guy' once too, until a good friend of mine (quite literally) punched me in the face over it my freshman year in college.
 

Zombie Acorn

macrumors 65816
Feb 2, 2009
1,301
9,062
Toronto, Ontario
You grow out of being a nice guy and just start being yourself. Theres no real game to it. If a woman wants to change something about your life tell her to **** off, she might respect you for it (or dump your ass, one of the two).
 

CorvusCamenarum

macrumors 65816
Dec 16, 2004
1,231
1
Birmingham, AL
Gelfin got it right. I get tired of hearing "nice guys" whine.

Hey "nice guys"- guess what? You don't get what you want because you never ask for it! And really- you kind of get off on not getting what you claim to want. You'd rather complain and whine about it than do something about it.

So get off your asses and tell that person you're being "nice" to that you want to bang the s*** out of her on a somewhat regular basis. Otherwise, you're using her as much as she's using you.
Women test potential suitors all the time, one goal of which is to see just how much of her crap said potential suitor will put up with. The nice guy is nothing more than someone who fails these test in her eyes.

Put another way, [straight] women are biologically programmed to prefer men she perceives as higher status than herself. This is why we see a lot of doctors with secretaries, but hardly ever do we see supermodels with janitors. A nice guy is someone a woman keeps around because he's useful to her without asking much in return.
 

iJon

macrumors 604
Feb 7, 2002
6,557
36
It's not about being nice or mean, it's about sparking attraction, something that nice guys are terrible at doing.

Being a girl's little gal pal and shopping buddy doesn't make her look at you in a sexual light. Buying her flowers and taking her on nice dates doesn't make her sexual attracted to you either.

Back in high school I used to be the nice guy but fortunately I got some good advice before I went to college so I didn't have to suffer like others do.

Sometimes people just need to advice when it comes to dating and attracting the opposite sex. There's nothing wrong with that, same as when we need some help learning to use a new Mac, learning to drive a car or maybe getting some help for a hard class in school.

A lot of it has to be with confidence and how you present yourself to the opposite sex. Go pick up one of the million books from the various pick up artists out there, including Mystery, Style, Janka, Deangelo and so forth.

Whether your goal is to be great with lots of women or just keep one for the long haul, these guys know women very well and will teach you lots of good skills for interacting with women as well as anyone else in life.
 

bobber205

macrumors 68020
Original poster
Nov 15, 2005
2,182
0
Oregon
In the last 6 months, I've "nutted" up and now I am dealing with the opposite of the situation I expected. xD
 

Rt&Dzine

macrumors 6502a
Oct 8, 2008
736
5
Also consider . . . the "nice guy" complains that the hot babe overlooks him because he may be a few pounds overweight and is not the tall, handsome, and buff campus stud. Maybe the "nice guy" should check out the "nice girl" and quit playing lapdog to the Perfect 10. (Although the hot babe may overlook your imperfections if you have status or lots of money.)
 

citizenzen

macrumors 65816
Mar 22, 2010
1,433
11,628
Also consider . . . the "nice guy" complains that the hot babe overlooks him because he may be a few pounds overweight and is not the tall, handsome, and buff campus stud.
Ain't that the truth! Everybody is obsessed over the alphas, when if they just opened their eyes there'd be an endless supply of perfectly good betas. We're hard-wired to aim for alphas. We need to use the brains we supposedly have and refocus on women that are actually attainable.
 

Attachments

pooky

macrumors 6502
Jun 2, 2003
356
1
Is that "plutonic" as in like-a-goofy-cartoon-dog or as in inhabiting-a-distant-Kuiper-Belt-object?
I was thinking more like a large, slowly cooling ball of liquid rock. Meaning a plutonic friend may eventually get it up, but only after a few million years have passed.

<Picture>
Wow... betas are one thing... I'll happily shoot for a beta... think I'll steer clear of the upsilons though...