Partisan USA

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by vrDrew, Oct 9, 2018.

  1. vrDrew macrumors 65816

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2010
    Location:
    Midlife, Midwest
    #1
    I don't want Conservative heads to explode.

    I don't want anyone's head exploding. It's probably pretty messy, and doesn't make my life any better.

    And that's the thing. Life is almost never a zero-sum game. I very rarely get ahead by making someone else worse off. That only happens if I'm a burglar or a casino operator. And I'm not.

    Please take a moment to think about this.

    When I think about most Conservative principles, be it lower taxes, smaller Government, more freedom: I'm OK with that. We might disagree on the finer details (are you free to take your AR-15 into the McDonalds? Or not.) But on the larger scale, I think Conservatives and me have more in common than not.

    So I'm concerned that we're getting too wrapped up in this tribal Red v. Blue battle. And its starting to cost us all.

    Do Conservatives want my liberal head to explode? (Gosh, I hope not.) But if it does, please explain how that makes your life better? I know my many (conservative) clients will lose out on the advice and guidance I give them for their businesses. They'll make less money.

    As a general rule: Heads exploding is bad for business. Bad for America. Make America even greater than it is already. Stop wishing for an explosive cranial event. Not for Yankee fans. Not for Democrats. Not for anybody.
     
  2. NT1440, Oct 9, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2018

    NT1440 macrumors G5

    NT1440

    Joined:
    May 18, 2008
    #2
    Agreed. Spite over governance is a horrible way to run a country. One end of the spectrum seems to only have the goal of annoying/“triggering” the ones trying to make a better world for ALL people (even though their answers are thoroughly couched in a capitalist paradigm). I’m sure everyone here can flesh out the context on this.
     
  3. Jason Honer Suspended

    Jason Honer

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2018
    Location:
    Boston MA
    #3
    So you’re anti-cranial explosions? Me too. The profit driven media is pushing this divide. Politicians looking to solidify a base are pushing this divide. Social media dopes fishing for likes are pushing this divide.
     
  4. VulchR macrumors 68020

    VulchR

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2009
    Location:
    Scotland
    #4
    As are foreign powers trying to weaken the US. I would have thought by now people would understand this but they don't. There's still a lot of trolling on social media and people swallow it like honey.
     
  5. hulugu macrumors 68000

    hulugu

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2003
    Location:
    quae tangit perit Trump
    #5
    Yep. The number of times I've seen people pass "Trump best president ever" articles from abc.go.news.obviouslythekgbdummy.ru as news makes my head hurt.
     
  6. Herdfan macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2011
    #6
    I think too many people have no fricking clue what either party stands for or what is in their platform. And then you have the single issue people who for example may hate Kavanaugh because they think he will somehow by himself overturn RvW. But that one issue is all they care about. The country could be burning down around them but as long as they can have an abortion everything is fine. (Not meaning to pick on them specifically as the right has just as many single issue voters)

    The whole Red/Blue battle is really being fought on the fringes. We just need the middle 60% to kick the fringes to the curb and learn to compromise. Do what's best for the country, not getting someone in your party elected in the next election so you can stick it to the other side.
     
  7. ActionableMango macrumors G3

    ActionableMango

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2010
    #7
    I'm not sure where I stand on this topic--my preferred news provider (that I selected because it only tells me what I want to hear) has not yet informed me whether I should be outraged at the anti-cranial explosion side or the pro-cranial explosion side.
     
  8. chown33 macrumors 604

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2009
    Location:
    betwixt
    #8
    Give it another turn when it says, "Reply hazy, try again".
     
  9. mac_in_tosh macrumors 6502

    mac_in_tosh

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2016
    Location:
    Earth
    #9
    What's unfortunate is that Trump not only doesn't try to heal the nation and bring people together, he actively encourages the divisiveness.
     
  10. vrDrew thread starter macrumors 65816

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2010
    Location:
    Midlife, Midwest
    #10
    Well, I think it's safe to say that many of the seeds of Trump's toxic rhetoric fall on fertile ground.

    And that's the Democrats fault. Because I think that for too long, they simply haven't provided a coherent narrative of what they are going to do to address the concerns of millions of voters. Shame on them.

    As a politician, you can say: "I'm going to fix the potholes." Or you can say: "The streets are falling apart because of Mexican trucks." Or, you can ignore the problem, as many Democrats have done, and spend a lot of time making sure that minority-owned highway contractors got preferential status in the bidding process.

    I'll forgive voters for going with the easier-to-understand narrative. Blame those Mexican trucks. It's not true, it's not going to fix the potholes.

    But its easier to understand.
     
  11. GermanSuplex macrumors 6502a

    GermanSuplex

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2009
    #11
    I have a couple of issues here... some of the “single issue voters” have a good reason to be a single issue voter; that goes for either side of the aisle. The problem is that America as a whole was much more conservative 20, 30 years ago and back. I’m ok with the progressive changes the country has made, some of them to me seem long overdue.

    This is a problem that will naturally sort itself out when the dinosaurs on both sides of the aisle are out of office and the younger generation takes over. Then we will have in-party fighting, which is arguably more favorable to citizens than cowering fall-in-liners.
     
  12. blackfox macrumors 65816

    blackfox

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2003
    Location:
    PDX
    #12
    I largely agree. As to the social media part - check this out:https://news.vice.com/en_us/article...nmar-problem-seriously-activists-say-thats-bs That says a lot imo.
     
  13. Herdfan macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2011
    #13
    Thing is, from where I sit, Obama did the same thing. In a different way for sure, but still.
    --- Post Merged, Oct 10, 2018 ---
    I think it is hard for the Dems to provide a single coherent narrative because there are many more "factions" of the Democratic Party than the GOP. Trying to get everyone moving in the same direction is tough.
     
  14. vrDrew thread starter macrumors 65816

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2010
    Location:
    Midlife, Midwest
    #14
    Political parties are always made up of "factions."

    One thing I think it's time for the Democrats to walk away from: Political Correctness.

    Most Americans strongly dislike it. What is surprising is that support for political correctness is only slightly higher among African-Americans than it is among the broader population. The only people who actually seem to place a very high importance on it are wealthy, highly educated, politically active people. And they were going to vote Democratic anyway.

    Walking away from PC culture doesn't mean accepting racial or other culturally abusive language or behavior. But I think most people understand the difference between a turn of phrase and true deliberate racism.

    Forget about racial and gender identity politics. And start concentrating on jobs, benefits, wages, and other "bread-and-butter" issues. The Democrats will start winning back a lot of those middle-class white people they've lost. And I doubt they'll lose that many minorities in the process.
     
  15. hulugu macrumors 68000

    hulugu

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2003
    Location:
    quae tangit perit Trump
    #15
    That's why abortion is a so-called "wedge issue." There are certain issues where we all basically agree, but might quibble on the details, and then there are issues, some important and some not, that are really designed to cleave apart people.

    For instance, I think we can have serious discussions about the use of military power in world affairs, or the benefits and disadvantages of single-payer healthcare. But, when it comes to baking cakes for gay people, everyone goes nuts.

    I remain unconvinced that Obama "encouraged" divisiveness. While there were times that the President could be dismissive of his opponents and even haughty, the fact that nearly every argument that Obama was divisive relies on his single "guns and religion" crack in 2008, is telling.

    I tend to think that presidents are always caught between trying to unify the country, and rally the base.

    It's easy to unify when everyone agrees—say Bush's first 9/11 speech—but it's difficult to unify the country when you have both serious and ridiculous arguments as a counterpoint. Especially so, when that other side is working as hard as possible to paint you as illegitimate as a "secret Muslim" intent on destroying America because of your anti-colonial feelings.

    Trump on the other hand seeks divisiveness at every turn. In fact, it's remarkable when he attempt unity as a rhetorical devise—and he almost always blows it up moments later.

    Bush was much better at this, and even he failed sometimes. Reagan too. But, Obama pulled all the same tricks, sometimes expertly, but was always painted as divisive by conservatives. This seems strikingly like a bad faith narrative put forth by conservative thinkers rather than a reality of the Obama presidency.
     
  16. decafjava macrumors 68030

    decafjava

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2011
    Location:
    Geneva
    #16
    I am glad to read this rare type of thread this morning - rational and calm discussion. Thanks @vrDrew

    Also- @hulugu love your sig, it resonates with me and reminds me of a similar sentiment expressed by Charles de Gaulle.

    Sadly it seems that politics has followed a similar path here in Europe.
     
  17. hulugu macrumors 68000

    hulugu

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2003
    Location:
    quae tangit perit Trump
    #17
    That's why abortion is a so-called "wedge issue." There are certain issues where we all basically agree, but might quibble on the details, and then there are issues, some important and some not, that are really designed to cleave apart people.

    For instance, I think we can have serious discussions about the use of military power in world affairs, or the benefits and disadvantages of single-payer healthcare. But, when it comes to baking cakes for gay people, everyone goes nuts.

    I remain unconvinced that Obama "encouraged" divisiveness. While there were times that the President could be dismissive of his opponents and even haughty, the fact that nearly every argument that Obama was divisive relies on his single "guns and religion" crack in 2008, is telling.

    I tend to think that presidents are always caught between trying to unify the country, and rally the base.

    It's easy to unify when everyone agrees—say Bush's first 9/11 speech—but it's difficult to unify the country when you have both serious and ridiculous arguments as a counterpoint. Especially so, when that other side is working as hard as possible to paint you as illegitimate as a "secret Muslim" intent on destroying America because of your anti-colonial feelings.

    Trump on the other hand seeks divisiveness at every turn. In fact, it's remarkable when he attempt unity as a rhetorical devise—and he almost always blows it up moments later.

    Bush was much better at this, and even he failed sometimes. Reagan too. But, Obama pulled all the same tricks, sometimes expertly, but was always painted as divisive by conservatives. This seems strikingly like a bad faith narrative put forth by conservative thinkers rather than a reality of the Obama presidency.
     
  18. Herdfan macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2011
    #18
    He could have squashed that in 2 minutes had he just produced his BC when it first came up.

    I have no idea why he didn't.
     
  19. hulugu macrumors 68000

    hulugu

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2003
    Location:
    quae tangit perit Trump
    #19
    His birth certificate was also a fake problem, but how would a birth certificate disprove the idea that he was a "secret Muslim?"

    And, even when he produced the document people started talking about a "long form birth certificate," and former Maricopa Sheriff Joe Arpaio wasted public money "investigating" the issue, while Trump kept yammering on about it. And, note, Trump also tried to take credit for the fact that President Obama relented completely unaware of how embarrassing this should have been.

    Again, Obama could be arrogant, but the other side accused him of faking his birth, his citizenship and his creed. And, yet, Obama's the divisive one?
     
  20. Herdfan macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2011
    #20
    I agree with everything you stated. But he could have stopped it, at least the citizenship part of it, by simply releasing it and letting the issue die. But for some reason he kept it out there.
     
  21. Huntn, Oct 11, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2018

    Huntn macrumors P6

    Huntn

    Joined:
    May 5, 2008
    Location:
    The Misty Mountains
    #21
    We have a gullibility combined with a cult of personality problem in this country that falls somewhere between anarchist , anti-constitution, and death wish. But when you look at who it is hoisted on their shoulders, and then you really have to wonder just how screwed up are we, at least some portion of us?
     
  22. NT1440 macrumors G5

    NT1440

    Joined:
    May 18, 2008
    #22
    My guess is the office of the president of the United States is a bit above having to quell blatantly racist and disingenuous conspiracy theories. Should he have also put out a memo clarifying that the earth isn’t flat?
     
  23. Herdfan macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2011
    #23
    He wasn't President when the issue first surfaced. In fact the issue was original raised by the Clinton campaign during the primaries. At that point he was less that 2 years into being the Jr. Senator from Illinois. So it wasn't below him at that point.

    Had it been me, and I was trying to be elected, I would have released it simply because it could have cost me votes. But in the end it all worked out for him.
     
  24. NT1440 macrumors G5

    NT1440

    Joined:
    May 18, 2008
    #24
    Tactics wise maybe he made the right call, maybe it wasn’t. Obama’s *brand* however, was to project that he was above having to deal with that crap to project the statesman image. Remember that he had a whole PR machine behind him crafting his image, as all politicians in high office do. That was the call his team made in how to handle it.
     

Share This Page

23 October 9, 2018