Paul Krugman advocates 'Death Panels' as deficit cutting measure.

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by fivepoint, Nov 15, 2010.

  1. fivepoint macrumors 65816

    fivepoint

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    #1
    As I watched "This Week" on Sunday, I couldn't believe my ears when Paul Krugman seemed to suggest that Death Panels would be a good way to cut the deficit. (video) I couldn't find any articles yesterday on this, I thought I was the only person who had caught it and realized how striking of a comment it was, but there are articles now. Here's the quote:

    Clearly he's right, in that death panels would obviously reduce costs... so, yeah. When the liberal economist poster child is advocating death panels I guess Sarah Palin wasn't so crazy to be concerned about it. Clearly there are liberal elites in power who want to make this type of thing a reality.

    Oh, and in case you think this is a singular mistake... here is Krugman on "This Week" earlier in the year:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aogCaGv9i78

    Ah yes, and Krugman also posted a back-tracking blog post on NYT last night at 12:30 trying to cover his butt from the surely coming criticisms. http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/11/14/death-panels-and-sales-taxes/
     
  2. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #2
    "Death Panels", right. Just like we have over here. We have faceless bureaucrats in windowless rooms all over the country deciding who lives and who dies. That's how the NHS works. Every week there's a new list of useless old moribund twats drawn up for their consideration, and they go through the list ticking off names.

    You really should start addressing reality.

    Every procedure is weighed up, for clinical effectiveness, cost and quality of life offered. If your system fails to do that, it's falling down on the job.
     
  3. firestarter macrumors 603

    firestarter

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    #3
    Well, if you're looking for a retarded take on something, Sarah Palin never disappoints!
     
  4. chilipie macrumors 6502a

    chilipie

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    But what if the liberals don't want "Death Panels", where people are chosen to be saved based on their worth to society, or just at random? What if they want something worse, where the "Death Panels" only choose the rich people to live, and deny people treatment when they thought they were protected, or for factors beyond their control?

    Ridiculous though the idea of death panels is, the system you want to maintain doesn't really seem that different from the hypothetical you love to hate.
     
  5. iJohnHenry macrumors P6

    iJohnHenry

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    #5
    Fiction becomes reality??
     
  6. MyDesktopBroke macrumors 6502

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    #6
    The conservative option for deficit cutting seems to be almost the same thing, but from a different angle: cut thousands upon thousands off unemployment benefits, cut social programs to the bone, cut medicaid and medicare, raise retirement age to 69.

    Cuts like that are going to end up in deaths. I'm hoping no one says it's their own fault for not looking hard enough for those every present American Jobs™, but knowing PRSI . . .
     
  7. bbotte macrumors 65816

    bbotte

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    Soylent Green here we come! Notice the "Green" in the name, and now everything that is good is "Green" :eek:
     
  8. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #8
    If you do the simple arithmetic, it's quite obvious that even Obama's cuts in Medicare won't keep the required money from overloading the federal tax income--when added to all the other social programs. Further cuts will be necessary.

    So, cuts in Medicare are de facto rationing of health care. At some point, the decision must be made as to just what medical treatments will be covered. If the amount of payment for any particular service is reduced to some level below affordability of the medical facility, they won't perform such a treatment. The bureaucratic structure which would determine such payments, then, will indeed become a "death panel".

    The existing repayment structure of Medicare and Medicaid has not kept up with the rising internal costs of hospitals and emergency rooms. Hundreds of hospitals have shut down, nationwide. Per an article in the LA Times of several years back, some 64 hospitals in the greater LA Basin had either closed or had closed their emergency rooms, and another 25 or so were at risk. My simple mind says that's a form of rationing, right there. How otherwise?

    And the so-called healthcare reform nonsense reduces Medicare by $400 billion over ten years--and folks have said right here on this forum, "Hey, the reform deal is what we need!" Er, uh, insurance premiums are going up--another form of rationing.

    TANSTAAFL.
     
  9. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #9
    Yeah, insurance doesn't work either. I don't know why people think it's any different.
     
  10. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #10
    It doesn't matter what country a person lives in, how poor or wealthy they are. The simple fact is that people are living as 'Rat points out, into their 90s. 30 years of unlimited health care will bankrupt the country, whether it's paid by the government or by private insurance.

    Some form of rationing is necessary.
     
  11. mcrain macrumors 68000

    mcrain

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    #11
    Step 1 of any ad hominem attack is to find something you can use to discredit the person. (A reference to death panels).
    Step 2 is to bring it up anytime any other conclusion made by this person is referenced.

    I would be willing to bet that anytime anyone mentions the failure of supply side economics or argues against tax cuts for the wealthiest, FP (and others) will bring this up in an attempt to discredit Krugman.
     
  12. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #12
    Krugman should have known better than to adopt the term "death panels". But as others have pointed out, private insurance has denied coverage as long as its existed... so this isn't anything new.
     
  13. obeygiant macrumors 68040

    obeygiant

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    This is great. Months ago folks were run-outta-town for even mentioning "death panels" or anything like it. Now its like "oh, its nothing new." :rolleyes:


    How is it humanitarian for someone else to decide that they've spent too much on your health care?
     
  14. mcrain macrumors 68000

    mcrain

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    #14
    Oh come on, you know that the people a few months ago were not talking about what Krugman is talking about. Neither are you.

    Private insurance and basically any payor defines by contract what they pay for and what they won't. Some procedures require preapproval, and many times, additional information is requested and sometimes, the insurance denies coverage. It happens all the time. Insurance companies have meetings/panels of experts to discuss the various medical procedures, the cost and whether they are effective, considered to be within the standard of care, or likely to benefit the patient. Those discussions are common, and are not "death panels."

    The anti-healthcare reform people a few months ago were insinuating that there was going to be a panel of doctors who look at your specific chart, your value to society in order to make a decision about whether you live or die. Basically a panel to decide if you get any coverage at all.

    That was absolutely bogus, not what Krugman is talking about, and you know it.
     
  15. kavika411 macrumors 6502a

    kavika411

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    #15
    They are completely different things. Months ago, folks were talking about death panels. Krugman, however, is talking about death panels.

    Notice the difference in syllable accents. Completely different.
     
  16. NT1440 macrumors G4

    NT1440

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    #16
    My god, is everything an appeal to authority with you?

    Also, which definition of "liberal" are you using this time again? I can never keep track with you.
     
  17. miloblithe macrumors 68020

    miloblithe

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    #17
    Probably. Conservatives tend to judge the validity of an argument based on the authority of the person making the argument. Whereas liberals are more likely to judge the validity of an argument based on the validity of the argument.
     
  18. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    As usual the language used to describe anything political is crucial in framing an issue before the public. That's why Reagan called the MX missile the "Peacekeeper" instead of "Death From Above". It's also why those who support abortion refer to themselves as "Pro-Choice" and not "Pro-Death".

    I suspect it won't take too many more mentions of "Death Panels" before there's a better name invented for it. If you use the language of the opposition, then you play right into their hands. I'm really surprised that Krugman isn't savvy enough to understand this.
     
  19. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #19
    Insurance companies do it all the time, but you seem to think that's OK.
     
  20. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #20
    Let us repeat... because some of you don't seem to get this...

    Insurance companies do it all the time, but you seem to think that's OK.
     
  21. NT1440 macrumors G4

    NT1440

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    #21
    While this seems to be the trend I've noticed personally, I'm not willing to make the statement as fact.

    I'd substitute "liberals" for "critical thinkers" though. I have met people of many different political persuasions and it seems people's understanding and solutions to problems hinge on whether or not they actually look into the issue or just skim the surface to make their stances.
     
  22. Macky-Mac macrumors 68030

    Macky-Mac

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    #22
    this isn't true though.

    "Months ago people were run-outta-town" for lying about the existence death panels in the healthcare bill. Comparing those lies with whatever Krugman said is a pretty dishonest apples to oranges comparison
     
  23. NT1440 macrumors G4

    NT1440

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    #23
    Yes, lets just continue to argue over nothing while ignoring the larger point. Congrats, we've fallen for the ploy.
     
  24. kavika411 macrumors 6502a

    kavika411

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    #24
    OK.

    Thanks.
     
  25. obeygiant macrumors 68040

    obeygiant

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    #25
    My impression of what those conversations were about was not that they already existed but that the rationing of health care would have to occur to keep the system viable.

    A death panel by any other name...
     

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