Pelosi Says Citizenship question is to M.A.W.A

Rhonindk

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Saw this tidbit come across my feed today and my immediate thought was “fake news”... SO I read and looked around a bit.
“This is about keeping -- –you know, 'Make America'- his hat? Make America White Again,” she continued. “They want to make sure that people -- –certain people are counted. It’s really disgraceful and it’s not what our Founders had in mind.”
Besides being physically impossible, I see outlandish claims like this as being another reason the Democratic Party really needs to take a step back and decide who and what they really are.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/08/politics/pelosi-trump-census-citizenship-question/index.html

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/nancy-pelosi-accuses-trump-admin-of-using-citizenship-census-question-to-make-america-white-again

Have to wonder just what she was thinking to make a statement like this.
 

JayMysterio

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Saw this tidbit come across my feed today and my immediate thought was “fake news”... SO I read and looked around a bit.


Besides being physically impossible, I see outlandish claims like this as being another reason the Democratic Party really needs to take a step back and decide who and what they really are.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/08/politics/pelosi-trump-census-citizenship-question/index.html

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/nancy-pelosi-accuses-trump-admin-of-using-citizenship-census-question-to-make-america-white-again

Have to wonder just what she was thinking to make a statement like this.
Our you could remember the context of what she is saying, which is the very accusations that have been made against the census question.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/pelosi-trump-make-america-white-again-census-citizenship-question_n_5d23a9e8e4b0cfb595faa915
What you saw on the part of the administration with the citizenship question is disgraceful,” she said during a San Francisco news conference. “But this is about keeping ... you know his hat ― Make America White Again. They want to make sure that people, certain people, are counted.”
They want to make sure that people, certain people, are counted.”
Last month, the Supreme Court ruled that the Department of Commerce failed to provide sufficient reasoning for its decision to add the question to the 2020 census questionnaire, blocking the move as a result. Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross has insisted it’s about the enforcement of the Voting Rights Act, a claim that has been derided by Democrats and civil rights advocates who believe it is meant to discourage immigrants and minorities from taking part in the decennial count.
Remember the primary issue with the question revolved this...

The question is simple: “Is this person a citizen of the United States?” But those words would lead to a 2020 undercount of 6 million Hispanics, or about 12 percent of the Hispanic population, according to a study published this spring by Harvard's Shorenstein Center on Media, Politics and Public Policy.Jun 6, 2019
Where a citizenship question could cause the census to miss millions ... https://www.washingtonpost.com/.../where-citizenship-question-could-cause-census-miss...

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-citizenship-question-2020-census-could-undercount-4-million-people-particularly-latinos-and-blacks/
Washington — The 2020 census is at the center of a contentious legal battle stemming from the Trump administration's controversial decision to include a question on U.S. citizenship to the nationwide survey. Now, a new report says the census could undercount more than 4 million people, particularly in Latino and African American communities.

A report released Tuesday by the non-partisan think tank Urban Institute found that in one scenario analyzed, the proposed addition of a citizenship question, along with other factors like underfunding of the Census Bureau and fear in immigrant communities, could fuel a massive undercount in next year's census not seen since 1990.
Diana Elliott, one of the report's authors and a senior research associate at the institute, said the group's study shows that the projected undercount would disproportionally affect young blacks and Latinos. Non-Hispanic whites and people over the age of 50, on the other hand, are likely to be overcounted by the census, she added.
The question was intended to undercount hispanics, and broaden the count & representation of non Hispanic whites. Which various courts and the Supreme Court realized, which is why question got smacked down.

If one is willing to look, Pelosi's comment makes sense in it's proper context.
 

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Rhonindk

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Our you could remember the context of what she is saying, which is the very accusations that have been made against the census question.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/pelosi-trump-make-america-white-again-census-citizenship-question_n_5d23a9e8e4b0cfb595faa915






Remember the primary issue with the question revolved this...


Where a citizenship question could cause the census to miss millions ... https://www.washingtonpost.com/.../where-citizenship-question-could-cause-census-miss...

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-citizenship-question-2020-census-could-undercount-4-million-people-particularly-latinos-and-blacks/




The question was intended to undercount hispanics, and broaden the count & representation of non Hispanic whites. Which various courts and the Supreme Court realized, which is why question got smacked down.

If one is willing to look, Pelosi's comment makes sense in it's proper context.
While I agree with a lot of what you posted, personally I have / see no issue with the question. I would like to see the breakdown of citizenship vs. Non-citizen. All we keep hearing is “It may ...” or “It could ...”. Suppositions.

What I was surprised at from Pelosi was the blatant lie using “white”. She is usually more innuendo. Unless Caucasians started a massive breeding program, importing from the EU, or importing from Australia, there is no way that is happening. The Democratic Party does not need statements like this.
 

Rhonindk

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To be clear, what she’s saying is that the point of the question (and we now have evidence to back this up) is to make America appear more white that it really is, in order to give white people disproportionately more political power.
Still not seeing it. Not seeing how it speaks to “race”.
The Citizenship has always been on the long form.

btw - what evidence?
 

Plutonius

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Its pretty obvious the question is being added to make America white again. Because otherwise the republicans can’t win.
The census question would only ask if people are a citizen.

How does that equate to making America white again ?

I can't see why anyone would have issues with it.
[doublepost=1562680467][/doublepost]
To be clear, what she’s saying is that the point of the question (and we now have evidence to back this up) is to make America appear more white that it really is, in order to give white people disproportionately more political power.
Isn't it to give actual citizens more political power ?
 

Rogifan

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Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons.
So is the issue how to define “Numbers” or “free Persons” with Republicans saying it means citizens and Democrats saying it means anyone living in the country whether they’re a citizen or not? If this question was on there couldn’t people just lie and say they were a citizen even if then weren’t?
 
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RichardMZhlubb

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Still not seeing it. Not seeing how it speaks to “race”.
The Citizenship has always been on the long form.

btw - what evidence?
Have you not been following the story of the deceased Republican operative who appears to be one of the leading voices behind the move to add the question? After he died, his daughter found information on his old hard drives in which he specifically outlined a plan to add the question to “advantage Republican and non-Hispanic whites.”

http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/05/team-trumps-real-motives-for-census-citizenship-question.html
[doublepost=1562681152][/doublepost]
Wasn’t there always some form of citizenship question before Obama came along?
Eisenhower, not Obama.

“The last time a citizenship question was among the census questions for all U.S. households was in 1950.”

https://www.npr.org/2018/03/27/597436512/fact-check-has-citizenship-been-a-standard-census-question
 

Rogifan

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Yeah, I’m not sure how citizenship has anything to do with race... however, what Pelosi is doing is standard Democratic divide and race bait.

Wasn’t there always some form of citizenship question before Obama came along?
Looks like 1950 was the last time the citizenship question was asked on the short form census. It has been on other long-form surveys but those are sent to a much smaller population.

https://www.npr.org/2018/03/27/597436512/fact-check-has-citizenship-been-a-standard-census-question
 

Herdfan

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We as a country know, or at least it is all in a database somewhere waiting to be mined, who all has been naturalized and who has been born here and who has died here. Anyone who fills out the survey not on those 2 lists probably is an illegal. We can get an answer to the question with a little work and not having to specifically ask the question.

But here is what I don't understand. The votes the Dems need to win in 2020 are in the rust belt. How are the voters in those states going to feel about their representation being watered down so California can get an extra Rep and EC vote? That is not going to play well with the people that have to take a shower after work instead of before.
 

RichardMZhlubb

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But here is what I don't understand. The votes the Dems need to win in 2020 are in the rust belt. How are the voters in those states going to feel about their representation being watered down so California can get an extra Rep and EC vote? That is not going to play well with the people that have to take a shower after work instead of before.
So you accept the idea that the intent of the question is to undercount undocumented immigrants?
 

Rhonindk

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So is the issue how to define “Numbers” or “free Persons” with Republicans saying it means citizens and Democrats saying it means anyone living in the country whether they’re a citizen or not? If this question was on there couldn’t people just lie and say they were a citizen even if then weren’t?
or have a “prefer not to answer option”?
 
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Rhonindk

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Have you not been following the story of the deceased Republican operative who appears to be one of the leading voices behind the move to add the question? After he died, his daughter found information on his old hard drives in which he specifically outlined a plan to add the question to “advantage Republican and non-Hispanic whites.”

http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/05/team-trumps-real-motives-for-census-citizenship-question.html
[doublepost=1562681152][/doublepost]

Eisenhower, not Obama.

“The last time a citizenship question was among the census questions for all U.S. households was in 1950.”

https://www.npr.org/2018/03/27/597436512/fact-check-has-citizenship-been-a-standard-census-question
More supposition and utilizing a few facts to paint a mural. It still does not address how this would actually accomplished and provide data to support the supposition. Like I said, it is on the long form. Don’t see why it can’t be on the short form. AND it does nothing to explain how this is a “Make America White Again” as stated by Pelosi.

I don’t understand the reasoning behind the stated assumption nor do I see how statements like this rebuild the Democratic Party nor address voters.
 
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Herdfan

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So you accept the idea that the intent of the question is to undercount undocumented immigrants?
Not at all. I WANT them counted so we know how many there are, which we have no real idea at this point.

But to answer your question, while I think they should be counted, as in enumerated, I don't think their numbers should be used to apportion representation. That is for citizens.

The left likes to make a big deal about certain votes being worth less because Wyoming gets an EC vote per 190,000 residents, but California only gets an EC vote per 720,000 residents. So for every citizen you add to CA, at least until you add another Rep, you are watering down CA's EC representation.

Also, by counting illegals, you are watering down the votes of citizens. What happened to every vote counts?
 

LizKat

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While I agree with a lot of what you posted, personally I have / see no issue with the question. I would like to see the breakdown of citizenship vs. Non-citizen. All we keep hearing is “It may ...” or “It could ...”. Suppositions.

What I was surprised at from Pelosi was the blatant lie using “white”. She is usually more innuendo. Unless Caucasians started a massive breeding program, importing from the EU, or importing from Australia, there is no way that is happening. The Democratic Party does not need statements like this.
Well in the era of Trump's blatant lies, the time for being subtle may be over.

As for the citizenship question itself, it's beyond me that the issue is being pursued in court at this point. The government's lawyers have a lot to overcome considering they were already found out to have lied about the purpose of the question to begin with. Whatever they come up with for another shot at the court, they have that on record behind them.

What's a coat of polyurethane over a flat lie? A shiny lie? Do they think the court puts up some kind of tabula rasa over the past for an appeal? That's not how it works. When the courts send something back they don't forget why they sent it back.

I'm surprised the RNC and congressional liaisons to the WH don't try a whole lot harder and more publicly to get the pandering to white supremacists toned down. Not doing so suggests to bystanders that the GOP leadership is totally on board with the racist inclinations of some of the party's elected officials and appointees.

For the GOP leadership not to advocate forcefully for shelving the idea of the census question on citizenship this time around seems almost stupid. That bell rang out pretty loudly when they went to court the first time and now they amplify the echoes by trying to go again in the same census season?

This is all down to Trump, basically. The Republican leadership is afraid to go against him and yet they're hanging themselves out to dry by not reining him in. I've never seen anything like it. The GOP have already lost the House. What will it take... losing the Senate? They'll be in the desert for 40 years if that happens and even having packed the federal courts will not save them. Meanwhile they own the dreadful legacy Trump is handing them.

A second appeal on the citizenship question is the laughingstock of the American legal community, yet out of fear the GOP stands back and gawks as Trump sends a new team up to try to get what he wants to make himself look good to his base... a base far too small to re-elect Trump in 2020. Astounding.
 
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RichardMZhlubb

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Not at all. I WANT them counted so we know how many there are, which we have no real idea at this point.

But to answer your question, while I think they should be counted, as in enumerated, I don't think their numbers should be used to apportion representation. That is for citizens.

The left likes to make a big deal about certain votes being worth less because Wyoming gets an EC vote per 190,000 residents, but California only gets an EC vote per 720,000 residents. So for every citizen you add to CA, at least until you add another Rep, you are watering down CA's EC representation.

Also, by counting illegals, you are watering down the votes of citizens. What happened to every vote counts?
If you don’t want them counted for apportionment purposes, you’ll need to amend the Constitution.
 

Rogifan

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can undocumented immigrants vote? no? then they don't count.
What about all the citizens who choose not to vote - either because they’re lazy or for principled reasons? Should they not be counted either?
[doublepost=1562686730][/doublepost]
If you don’t want them counted for apportionment purposes, you’ll need to amend the Constitution.
Where does the constitution reference undocumented immigrants?
 
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