Personhood: Does "Hobby Lobby" have "religious beliefs"?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by jnpy!$4g3cwk, Nov 25, 2013.

  1. jnpy!$4g3cwk macrumors 65816

    jnpy!$4g3cwk

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    #1
    Corporations today are much more than a legal fiction allowing a bunch of people to own a business together. Sometimes they live almost forever. They get to have their own, sometimes very intrusive, family rules for employees. They have freedom of speech. And now, apparently, they are acquiring the religious beliefs of their owners.



    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/25/us/court-confronts-religious-rights-of-corporations.html?hpw&rref=us

    Everyone, including conservatives, had better think long and hard about the implications of this.
     
  2. hallux macrumors 68020

    hallux

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    #2
    In my high-school years I worked in a couple Pizza Huts in my area. At one point the franchise was sold to a new company. This new company had religious beliefs such that they wouldn't sell alcohol in a restaurant like that so all the taps and kegs were removed once ownership transitioned.

    People weren't happy.

    Point being, they owned the right to run the restaurant but they can run it in the way they see fit within the guidelines of the parent company (which does not require beer to be sold). I would imagine that same company would have similar views on the ACA but I don't work for them anymore and I think all their locations in the area have been bought out, the 2 I worked at are now closed actually so I can't even ask anyone.
     
  3. ucfgrad93 macrumors P6

    ucfgrad93

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    #3
    A company has every right to decide on their own what products they will sell.
     
  4. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    I'm very troubled that corps. Are gaining more and more rights when it's really only a few people whose values are reflected.
     
  5. hallux macrumors 68020

    hallux

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    Except in this case the owners of the company are the ones whose religious views are being expressed. They're not fighting it to help those whose views are against contraceptives, it's THEIR views that are like that.

    There are churches or church-related institutions that have the same fight on their plates and they're likely watching VERY intently, though I THINK there is an exemption in the law for those cases.
     
  6. lannister80 macrumors 6502

    lannister80

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    #6
    Churches get a super-duper-special exemption because they're houses of worship. We already had this fight with hospitals run by Catholics not wanting to provide contraceptive coverage to their employees (and they basically lost).

    If we don't exempt Catholic hospitals (which is the right move), we sure as **** aren't going to exempt Hobby Lobby.

    Hey, what if my religious belief is that handicapped people are evil and I don't want to accommodate them in my business, in volition of the ADA. Do I get an exemption?
     
  7. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #7
    So privat equity should dictate health care?

    I disagree" operating a business in the USA is a privilege, not a right. Labor laws must be adhered to and I'm sure there are a raft of laws that an extremist business owner might disagree with. Why should health care be singled ou? It makes no sense.

    BTW, I've made a list of companies I will not buy from based on their religious/libertarian/extremist viewpoints. Walmart got big because people are more interested in saving a penny than in supporting the us economy. I've no desire to live under xian sharia law.
     
  8. lannister80 macrumors 6502

    lannister80

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    Agree, that's fine with me.

    Unless, of course, there was a law that said restaurants were *required* to sell alcohol (like the contraceptive rule). In that case, tough cookies.
     
  9. hallux macrumors 68020

    hallux

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    #9
    Except that the First Amendment (as upheld in Reynolds v. US in 1879, I looked it up) says that no law shall interfere with religious beliefs and opinions but it may with practices (Polygamy, human sacrifice, etc).

    The ACA interferes with the religious beliefs and opinions centered around contraception.
     
  10. lannister80 macrumors 6502

    lannister80

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    #10
    Nonsese. Does it force them to change their beliefs? Does it force them to violate their personally-held belief of not using contraception *themselves* by making them use contraception? No.

    Does it change the (does this even exist?) "practice" of not providing contraception to employees? Yes.
     
  11. MyMac1976 macrumors 6502

    MyMac1976

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    #11
    Corporations are not people, they don't have religious beliefs.

    Second this would regulate action not belief
     
  12. VulchR macrumors 68020

    VulchR

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    #12
    Owners of a business probably have rights that would allow them to operate their business according to their personal beliefs, including religion. The moment they offer stock publicly, though, this should no longer be the case. I believe the same should be true in regard to political donations: any company with publicly traded stock should not be allowed to contribute to political campaigns. Otherwise, it puts too much power into the hands of executives....
     
  13. LIVEFRMNYC macrumors 603

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    #13
    Correct ..... Selective treatment for certain able bodied citizens should have no place within our law.
     
  14. steve knight macrumors 68020

    steve knight

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    #14
    Hobby lobby is not taking the bc's so what is the problem? it is like saying we will dock your pay you if you spend your money on bc or alcohol or cigarettes or anything else we don't like. All they want to do is force their beliefs on a captive audience. it is not upto them to choose what someone else does with their health.
     
  15. SLC Flyfishing Suspended

    SLC Flyfishing

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    #15
    If the owners don't want to directly spend their money on Birth Control because it goes against their religious beliefs (maybe they don't believe in enabling others to do what they view as a sin either), then why don't they just increase the pay of their employees by that amount each month so that the employees can then use "their own money" to buy it.

    That way the owners can have a clean conscience, and we don't have to hear any whining about "forcing of beliefs" by everyone else.

    Problem solved.

    That or the employees can go to Planned Parenthood and get it for free (a years supply at a time in most cases).
     
  16. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #16
    Where does the bible say contraception is wrong?

    I mean seriously the argument that the bible is against gays is pretty weak, and abortion doesn't seem to be mentioned in the book at all. But contraception? Seriously? Sounds like Saudi style sharia law to me....
     
  17. rdowns macrumors Penryn

    rdowns

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    #17
    Was just announced that John Roberts and Associates, LLC will be taking up the issue.
     
  18. TSE macrumors 68030

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    #18
    Here's the thing, even if I disagree with Hobby Lobby's views and beliefs.

    Don't you have the right to run the business the way you want to? Don't employees that aren't satisfied working at Hobby Lobby have the right to not start working there in the first place/find a new job elsewhere?
     
  19. rdowns macrumors Penryn

    rdowns

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    #19
    They have the right to run their business as they see fit provided they adhere to laws and regulations.

    http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/11/26/2994541/workplace-contraception/
     
  20. TSE macrumors 68030

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    #20
  21. Sydde macrumors 68020

    Sydde

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    #21
    If they are so dead-set against abortion, they need to stop stocking their shelves with stuff made in China. See if they can still make a profit then (or even find enough stuff they can put on their shelves). Cussed hypocrites.
     
  22. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #22
  23. SLC Flyfishing Suspended

    SLC Flyfishing

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    #23
    While I disagree with the owners stance, I fail to see how refusing to pay for birth control constitutes them dictating what's right and wrong.
     
  24. localoid, Nov 26, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2013

    localoid macrumors 68020

    localoid

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    #24
    Corporate Personhood: How Did We Get Here?

    Take a video excursion along the timeline of corporate personhood...

     
  25. pdjudd macrumors 601

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    #25
    Their basis for denying is based on their religious beliefs, which is something that not all of their employees might agree with. Nobody is saying that the owners cannot hold the beliefs that they hold. The problem is that the business is not a human being and so long as they are not a religious organization, their are subject to the laws that all other business are.

    You can’t just skirt the rules just because you disagree with them. If Hobby Lobby wishes to offer insurance, they need to follow the laws else it creates a precedent for other organizations. Should a company run by scientologists be allowed to not cover mental heath plans (given that they do not believe in those)? What if the owner of a company is anti-vaccination - should they be able to deny coverage for vaccines since they believe that they are harmful?

    Sorry. If Hobby Lobby’s owners don’t want to take advantage of the BC coverage, they don’t have to use them. Same thing with their employees - they don’t have to use them either. However, if one does (and don’t forget that we are talking about a legal product), they should have the right. If Hobby Lobby wants an exception, they need to be a different business or they need to come up with a non religious reason.
     

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