Pilgrims, Property Rights, and the 'Real' Story of Thanksgiving

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by fivepoint, Nov 25, 2010.

  1. fivepoint macrumors 65816

    fivepoint

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    #1
    Did the Indians save the first Americans with their knowledge of Agriculture? Or did the story go a bit differently? How the early pilgrims sealed their fate with socialism and changed for the better to ensure their own survival:

    Video:
    http://reason.tv/video/show/the-pilgrims-and-property

    NYT:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/21/weekinreview/21zernike.html?_r=2&pagewanted=all

    Charles Wickwire:
    http://www.enterstageright.com/archive/articles/0902/0902amsoc.htm
     
  2. rdowns macrumors Penryn

    rdowns

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    #2
    Jesus ****ing christ, can't you give it a rest for the holiday?

    Oh, Happy Thanksgiving.
     
  3. Huntn, Nov 25, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2010

    Huntn Suspended

    Huntn

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    #3
    At some point I read the Indians informed the colonists that they need to include beans in their diet with corn or they would die?

    Jamestown also started out with a communal charter but after a time dealing with the slackers, John Smith is reported to have said, "If Ye will not work, Ye will not eat!" and the communal system was abandoned. There will always be slackers but does this prove that socialism does not work any more than does excessive power and riches held in a few hands proves the capitalism works?

    Have a good Thanksgiving! :)
     
  4. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #4
    No, apparently he can't. Teh Librools are out to get rid of Thanksgiving too! :rolleyes:
     
  5. OllyW Moderator

    OllyW

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    #5
    You've got that wrong.

    Us euro commie socialist types have tons more holidays than you do. ;)
     
  6. Huntn, Nov 25, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2010

    Huntn Suspended

    Huntn

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    #6
    I know that Canada has Thanksgiving although it is not celebrated on the same day as in the U.S. Does England have some kind of a give thanks by gorging yourself celebration? :D

    Here is a thought, who should we give thanks to? I do give thanks, I'm not sure who is receiving it. ;)
     
  7. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #7
    That's because you're lazy and don't want to work. ;)
     
  8. iJohnHenry macrumors P6

    iJohnHenry

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    #8
    It is unfortunate that he cannot publish in five point.

    Then I would be unable to read his ramblings, and just move ahead with my life.
     
  9. Gelfin macrumors 68020

    Gelfin

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    #9
    If we're really going to go at this today, the word you're looking for is not "socialist" but "Christian," which is not actually much of a difference if you know much about the latter. Remember that the Puritans were first and foremost religious extremists who sought freedom to practice a highly repressive form of Christianity that was not well tolerated within the Church of England. The idea that it is every man's responsibility to work as hard as he can, not for personal reward but for work's sake and the glory of God is what we still vestigially call the "Protestant Work Ethic."

    To identify the Pilgrims with a socioeconomic philosophy that did not emerge for nearly another 200 years is rank dishonesty. Their leaders built a society based on what they believed would allow them to live closer to Biblical principles as they understood them.

    When some people started becoming far wealthier than others, as they always do, for obvious reason or for none, they began to fall back, as the wealthy in America always do, on Calvinism: if you're rich, that means God loves you more, period. How much or little work you did is of no consequence; the reward is yours by divine right. Thus emerged the bizarre and irrational American attitude about the relationship between labor, reward and society. We injected God into all those relationships very early on so as to build a society that compels the poor to accept it as moral that they work much harder than the rich (and for the rich) only to be treated as disposable when misfortune strikes. These days it's mostly just habit, but originally it was a highly convenient form of religious zealotry.

    Also, when trying to shoehorn a rant against "socialism" into distant American history, do keep in mind that while antisocial materialism has been on a rapid upswing since Reagan, the current ridiculous mouth-foaming furor over "socialism" is less than two years old. This makes the entire exercise in "reframing" American history eye-rollingly ham-fisted in its manipulation and generally just dumb.

    Happy Thanksgiving!
     
  10. Thomas Veil macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

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    #10
    From 5P's NYT link:

    So do these Tea Party pinheads have to ruin everything by trying to turn it into a political argument?

    This is the biggest problem I have with Tea Party types: they're a bunch of pathetic whiners who can't accept that the world doesn't revolve around only them. To that end, they have to politicize everything...even Thanksgiving.

    Next they'll try to ruin Easter by saying that Jesus didn't die for all of us, he did it for himself, for the glory.
     
  11. Macky-Mac macrumors 68030

    Macky-Mac

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    #11
    poor 5P.....no more Thanksgiving for him now that it's "proven" to be a socialist holiday. :p

    But of course from his link, it also looks like this is just more fantasy "history", much like the Beckian fantasy that "proved" how BIG GOVERNMENT invented slavery and forced patriotic freedom loving Americans to own slaves


    Maybe you have that backwards. If he died for all of us, probably that would be what right wingers would consider to be socialist. :eek: Hmmmm, then they'll complain about Jesus being a socialist and get grumpy since they wont be able to worship him any more :rolleyes:
     
  12. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #12
    I didn't realise that the Indians technological prowess in the 16th century was so great that they crossed the Pacific ocean from their homeland to the Americas. Impressive stuff :eek:.
     
  13. bradl macrumors 68040

    bradl

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    #13
    My boys and I can always take care of that, though..

    We can always kick your lot back to the other side of the pond.. that's if they are willing to accept you (which more than likely, they WON'T).

    But then again, if we do that, we won't have any of you to work for us in our casinos. ;)

    BL.
     
  14. CHAOS STEP macrumors 6502

    CHAOS STEP

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    #14



    I thought the 'real' story was that the native population was slaughtered and their land taken.

    Don't choke on your turkey.
     
  15. Lord Blackadder macrumors G5

    Lord Blackadder

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    #15
    I take it you won't be celebrating this "socialist" holiday then?

    You're trying really hard to find socialism everywhere. Lavrentiy Beria would be proud of your methods, but it's sounding increasingly paranoid. The flaw in your reasoning is that you label every single instance of resource-pooling as "socialism". Your reasoning could hardly be more simplistic.

    I can't wait for the next installment in your "Why all Holidays have Socialist Origins" series.
     
  16. fivepoint thread starter macrumors 65816

    fivepoint

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  17. Lord Blackadder macrumors G5

    Lord Blackadder

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    #17
    I'm busy working out a forced collective allocation of turkey and sides as we speak.
     
  18. Macky-Mac macrumors 68030

    Macky-Mac

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    #18
    there you have it.....proof that comrade 5P is a crypto-socialist! :D

    and Happy Thanksgiving to you too
     
  19. Huntn Suspended

    Huntn

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    #19
    You did not know the Indians were the first to circumnavigate the globe? :p
     
  20. iJohnHenry macrumors P6

    iJohnHenry

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    #20
    In the manner of the settling of Hawaii via boat, or by land via the suspected land-bridge in the current Bering Sea??
     
  21. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #21
    Hey, put me down for a drumstick, cranberries and stuffing, ok?
     
  22. robanga macrumors 68000

    robanga

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    #22
    Utopia is hard to accomplish in any system. The indians of the area had been decimated by disease in the generation previous to the Mayflower landing. They had known visits from Europeans prior to the Pilgrims for many years.

    It was only one Chiefs desire to ally with the European against two other tribes, that motivated the Indians to help out at all and not pick them off when they were weakest. The nature of their help is open to historic debate.

    Socialism is a nice idea, practically it falls apart in part due to man's selfish nature.
     
  23. Huntn Suspended

    Huntn

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    #23
    Every economic/social system is subject to failure based on man's folly.
     
  24. CaoCao macrumors 6502a

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    #24
    Yup we also invented math, medicine, USB and Pentium microprocessors (everything Intel since 1993)
    put me down or a double ration since I burned 6000 calories
    nope, they were decimated between when Squanto was saved from slavery by Jesuits and when he returned

    long story short

    PS the first American Thanksgiving was actually celebrated on September 8, 1565 in St. Augustine, Florida. The Native Americans and Spanish settlers held a feast and the Holy Mass was offered.
     
  25. fivepoint thread starter macrumors 65816

    fivepoint

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    #25

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