Please sign this or attempt to rationally justify not doing it

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by floyde, May 25, 2011.

  1. floyde, May 25, 2011
    Last edited: May 31, 2011

    floyde macrumors 6502a

    floyde

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    #1
    UPDATE
    Leading world politicians urge 'paradigm shift' on drugs policy
    END UPDATE

    Please sign this petition.

    ***Link removed until rule breach confirmed, for now discuss instead of signing*********

    I don't know how effective an online petition can be, but at this point anything is worth a shot.

    In just a few years I've seen my once peaceful and safe city turn into a war-zone and a breeding nest for criminals. Zero results (unless you count capturing/murdering a few replaceable drug lords as an achievement) and the madman at the president's seat still babbles that he will not change his policies (not without receiving a few pats in the back from Washington, btw).

    Perhaps he thinks that if he deludes himself enough, reality will follow suit. How many years of failure does it take to realize that a policy doesn't work?

     
  2. 184550 Guest

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    #2
    From the Forum Rules:

     
  3. floyde thread starter macrumors 6502a

    floyde

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    #3
    Oh well, please delete if it's against forums rules. It's for a good cause though. :(

    Edit: I didn't know that not-for-profit's were also forbidden.
     
  4. Tomorrow macrumors 604

    Tomorrow

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    #4
    So...we roll over and agree that a nation full of stoners is a good idea? I'm not sure what you're asking for here.
     
  5. chrmjenkins macrumors 603

    chrmjenkins

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    #5
    If this ever comes to debate in the US, the best you can do is call and/or write your representative. Some actually pay attention, or at least have their staffers do so.
     
  6. iJohnHenry macrumors P6

    iJohnHenry

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    #6
    So, no self-actualisation is allowed??

    The Government owns your sorry ass, from birth to death?

    You said "stoners", which to me implies pot, which anyone can grow, like veggies. I am not talking hard drugs, which should remain illegal.

    If you choose be be a stoner, and do nothing with your life, why should you not be allowed to?
     
  7. chrmjenkins macrumors 603

    chrmjenkins

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    #7
    I don't know that legalizing and regulating the more illicit substances increases their use. The data I've seen seems to suggest the contrary (although one needs distinguish between legalizing and de-criminalizing).
     
  8. floyde thread starter macrumors 6502a

    floyde

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    #8
    You already have a nation full of stoners. But you have a nation full of stoners that throws away millions by supporting a policy that yields zero results in diminishing drug trade and consumption.

    At least in your country the cost is merely monetary, here in Mexico the cost is much, much higher. Civil liberties are eroding, crime is rising at alarming levels, you have to check twitter before going out to avoid getting caught in the middle of a shootout. As hard as it is to imagine, corruption is getting even worse to the point were justice hardly exists. That's no way to live, especially not if you consider that it is all for nothing. Drug consumption is rising, trade is rising, how can you possibly justify a war on drugs when there are no results?
     
  9. Tomorrow macrumors 604

    Tomorrow

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    #9
    Hmm...I don't know any. I should get out more.

    I disagree with your claim of "no results."

    How can you justify rolling over and giving up on something many people believe in just because it's hard?
     
  10. AP_piano295 macrumors 65816

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    #10
    Nailed it.
     
  11. floyde thread starter macrumors 6502a

    floyde

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    #11
    (Assuming you are in the US) I find that hard to believe since your country is one of the largest, if not the largest drug consumer.

    Well I think that reality disagrees with your disagreement. Consider this analogy: When you make a product at a factory, sometimes the process wastes a lot of material that can't be reused. These are production costs, these are not considered a failure unless the revenue from selling the products is not enough to cover these costs.

    You know those "big busts" where the marine takes a nice picture next to the tonnes of confiscated marijuana? Production costs.

    The profit margins of the drug industry are so insane that a scene like that is more of a joke than an achievement.

    That is a logical fallacy. Ending the military war on drugs is not giving up on the drug issue. Quite the contrary. It's about looking for a solution that actually works. It is about realizing that having thousands of people dead, having third world countries on the brink of chaos is a much more serious issue than the health problems (which, by the way, might be treated with a fraction of the cost of the so-called war).
     
  12. DeaconGraves macrumors 65816

    DeaconGraves

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    #12
    While I don't think that all drugs should be legalized (there needs to be a line somewhere, though I'm not sure where that line should be), certain substances such as marijuana could definitely be regulated (and then taxed like crazy).
     
  13. Tomorrow macrumors 604

    Tomorrow

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    #13
    And start hanging out with recreational drug users?

    That will enrich my life how, exactly? :rolleyes:

    This sounds to me like you're accusing me of lying, which I don't appreciate. No, I just don't run in those circles.

    So, people die from fighting the war on drugs, but not from actually using drugs? :rolleyes:
     
  14. iJohnHenry macrumors P6

    iJohnHenry

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    #14
    Perhaps this requires a visit to the "vacation" thread? ;)
     
  15. Sydde macrumors 68020

    Sydde

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    #15
    You can draw a straight line to the 18th Amendment, which I think was what gave the mafia the leg up it needed to become a serious force in society. As long as a drug is illegal, there will be someone making beaucoup bucks trading in it, not paying any tax, and forcing the government to chase them, often at great expense. Then when we do catch the dealers, the go into the big house for a long time. So every way you look at it, the "war on drugs" is a losing proposition. It not only costs everyone money, the illicit nature of the substances acts as an attractant for some.

    Problem is, iJH suggests we should only legalize weed. And the average person would probably be relatively comfortable with that. But that solves almost nothing, because we still have to figure out how to deal with coke and heroin, which may not be an insignificant part of the problem.

    So clearly prohibition has failed, and selective or blanket legalization look to be somewhat fraught with peril. Where are the wise people we need to help us solve thus issue?
     
  16. chrmjenkins macrumors 603

    chrmjenkins

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    #16
    North America has an estimated 30 million cannabis users.

    http://www.unodc.org/documents/wdr/WDR_2010/World_Drug_Report_2010_lo-res.pdf

    As for no results, I've seen no study indicating that the war or drugs has reduced crime, strain on social resources, increased medical costs, etc.

    Public opinion for legalization of marijuana hovers around 50% in some places, including California where it failed to pass 48 to 52.
     
  17. floyde thread starter macrumors 6502a

    floyde

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    #17
    I'm not accusing you of lying. You're making it sound like the fact that you don't know any stoners means that there aren't any. I'm just pointing out that this is fallacious.

    No, it goes something like this:
    -Criminalization of drugs doesn't reduce (much less stop) drug consumption
    -Criminalization of drugs is responsible for making the drug industry one of the most profitable businesses in the world. (no other industry comes close to the profit margins involved in the drug trade, and that is a direct result of drugs being illegal)
    -Criminals thus amass a quantity of money that dwarfs the budget of the military of any of the countries where the drug trade takes place (except the US).
    -Criminals use this insane amount of money to buy off corrupt government officials, purchase high-end weapons to fight their rivals (which kills thousands of rivals as well as thousands of innocent bystanders), and to pretty much erode government structure of affected countries.

    So yes, the war on drugs kills many more people than drugs themselves, not to mention that it doesn't reduce drug consumption. What is so hard to understand about this?
     
  18. Tomorrow macrumors 604

    Tomorrow

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    #18
    Nobody's really answered my question.

    Are we supposed to just throw up our hands and say, "okay, smoke 'em if ya got 'em"?


    I addressed your claim that this country is "full of stoners." You haven't convinced me.
     
  19. chrmjenkins macrumors 603

    chrmjenkins

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    #19
    Of course. Unless someone can produce data/a study that legalization/de-criminalization would have net negative effects, or that criminalization mitigates harmful effects to our society.
     
  20. Phil A., May 25, 2011
    Last edited: May 25, 2011

    Phil A. Moderator

    Phil A.

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    #20
    Do we have nations full of alcoholics because Alcohol is legal? If someone wants to get off their face on drugs, then why shouldn't they as long as they don't harm anyone?
     
  21. Lord Blackadder macrumors G5

    Lord Blackadder

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    #21
    I think it should be regulated more or less on the same lines as tobacco.
     
  22. Tomorrow macrumors 604

    Tomorrow

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    #22
    I keep asking, "why?" and the answer I seem to keep getting is, "why not?"
     
  23. floyde, May 25, 2011
    Last edited: May 25, 2011

    floyde thread starter macrumors 6502a

    floyde

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    #23
    I answered your question. You point is a false dichotomy. The alternative to the war on drugs is not getting stoned like crazy.

    I've been proposing ending the war on drugs in favor of a more effective solution. No one is giving up on trying to solve drug-related issues. There are other alternatives.

    As chrmjenkins pointed out, there are about 30 million cannabis users in North America. It doesn't matter if you're convinced, reality is equally indifferent to your proposition.
     
  24. chrmjenkins macrumors 603

    chrmjenkins

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    #24
    Because of the massive amounts of tax dollars spent, prison space occupied by users, lives lost with no signs of consumption going down, public opinion actually sliding toward legalization, and so on and so forth.

    The monetary hit is a double whammy. You're not just foregoing tax dollars you could collect from it, you're spending them from elsewhere to try and stop it.

    And in the specific case of marijuana, there's plenty of studies out there that show its harmfulness is equal to tobacco at the absolute worst, which is legal and regulated.
     
  25. Phil A. Moderator

    Phil A.

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    #25
    OK, to try and answer the "why" (without saying "why not"):

    The "war on drugs" costs billions of dollars a year across the globe, and is, in reality, a political stand rather than something based in solid scientific evidence. On top of that, it has a negligible impact on the use of drugs in society (if someone wants drugs, they can find them very easily in almost any major town or city in the world), and criminalizes people unnecessarily.

    As an example of how political it is, the UK Government (the Labour one before the current one) recently downgraded cannabis from class B to class C. They then decided that they would upgrade it again to class B. Their chief drug adviser strongly recommended that they didn't do so and provided a lot of compelling scientific evidence to support his stand. Did the government listen to him? No, they reclassified it anyway and then sacked him claiming they no longer trusted his advice (in other words, they only want advice that fits the political agenda)

    We have an established precedent with alcohol:
    It's addictive, mood altering, dangerous to health and creates large scale social problems far worse than cannabis use would but is perfectly legal to use:

    During Euro 2000 (a europe-wide soccer tournament), the Dutch police found that crowds who were drunk were likely to be violent, but crowds who were stoned on cannabis (cannabis use is tolerated in Holland) were far less violent and much more law abiding. In fact, the difference was so great that the Portuguese authorities in 2004 decided to turn a blind eye to cannabis use during the tournament when they hosted it.


    Finally, if you are pushing a door and it refuses to open, do you continue to push or do you try pulling it? It's about time Governments stopped pushing and tried a different way to tackle "the drug problem", because the current attempts aren't working
     

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