Political-oriented insanity

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by jpietrzak8, Jun 15, 2017.

  1. jpietrzak8 macrumors 65816

    jpietrzak8

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    #1
    I've gotta say, I'm having more and more trouble these days understanding just what people in political circles are thinking. Specifically, the allegations now being thrown around at one another; at the moment, the Trump / Russia axis is on top.

    To my mind, it is intuitively obvious that Donald Trump has never colluded with the Russians, nor has he ever wanted to do so. The man may be flawed, but he's never shown himself to be anything other than patriotic, nor does he gain any advantage at all in trying to sell the country out. And I'm not sure he'd be capable of such a feat in the first place. Put simply, the very idea of him trying to do something on that level is laughable.

    But that brings me to my second question: the response by the Right wing to the Left wing's tilting at windmills, is to tilt right back at more windmills. To me, the very obvious thing to do is to hold investigations, plenty of them if necessary, showing that Trump has done no wrong. That seemed to work for Hillary Clinton; because right there we have another case of a person for whom it is intuitively obvious that she has done no wrong. Hillary Clinton is a patriotic citizen who gains nothing by trying to spread classified information around; and investigation after investigation has shown just this fact.

    But it's as if admitting that the person on the other side of the divide is not evil incarnate is just too hard to accept. It is accepted gospel for some folks that Clinton is some sort of evil traitor to the country, even though it is obvious she is not. It is also now accepted gospel for other folks that Trump is some bought-and-paid-for patsy for Vladimir Putin, even though it is also obvious that he is not. The two sides now talk right past one another; Trump's latest tweets show this in detail:

    Screenshot from 2017-06-15 18-25-54.png Screenshot from 2017-06-15 18-26-10.png

    Even though Clinton's actions have been studied by investigation after investigation, the results of those investigations are completely ignored, and Right-wing activists (such as Trump) act as if they have never occurred.


    So here's the question: does running the government actually matter any more, or is it more important to spend all our time trying to score points against the other side, regardless of how ridiculous the claims are? Trump himself rode into office on chants of "Lock her up!" despite there being no reason to do just that (which is most likely why he hasn't even tried). The Left has responded by mixing the Russian attacks on the election (which are highly believable) with some Trump-based conspiracy (which is not).

    With so many Americans now buying into their preferred fantasy conspiracy theory, I worry that the country will lose whatever grip it may ever have had on reality...
     
  2. darksithpro macrumors regular

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    Oct 27, 2016
    #2
    Regardless of our internal bickering, Putin wins when we fight among each other. It's a win for Russia, and other not so friendly countries, that's for sure.
     
  3. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #3
    Great. So stop fighting and start agreeing with us.

    Problem solved.
     
  4. jpietrzak8 thread starter macrumors 65816

    jpietrzak8

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    #4
    Can't agree more. It's like Russia didn't even need to try and throw monkeywrenches into the election process (and I doubt he really got his money's worth anyway, although it was probably good training for his future efforts to disrupt the US); we seem to be all too happy to condemn our fellow citizens as harshly as we can. :(
    --- Post Merged, Jun 15, 2017 ---
    What do you mean? The whole "Trump is colluding with the Russians" is as much a fever-dream as the "Clinton is trying to sell classified secrets" idea. Both sides have wandered off into fantasy land here.
     
  5. darksithpro, Jun 15, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2017

    darksithpro macrumors regular

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    #5

    There was a really good interview on The View with Condoleezza Rice that sheds some light into all that's going on. She started by talking about Hillary and Putin. Apparently in Putin's most recent election Hillary came out and stated the election was a fraud and that Putin was an illegitimate President. Apparently this enraged Putin greatly and according to Rice he made a coordinated effort to invalidate our 2016 election as payback. Rice herself is an expert on the Soviet Union and Communism. I suggest you watch that excerpt where she talked about the whole ordeal. It makes a lot of sense on what's really going on behind the scenes.
     
  6. citizenzen, Jun 15, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2017

    citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #6
    I don't know why you'd leap to that conclusion. Within my lifetime there have been at least two presidents, Nixon and Reagan, who colluded with enemies/hostile nations to help them win elections. And I don't see trump as being especially patriotic. The one consistent thread running through his life is his intense self-centeredness. The last thing he'd do is sacrifice for the nation if he thought it wouldn't help his bottom line.

    That isn't saying that I know or even have good reason to believe that he did collude with Russia. That is something for the investigation to look into. However, writing off the possibility as laughable is IMO, naive, and requires a leap of faith that he hasn't earned.
     
  7. LizKat macrumors 68040

    LizKat

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    #7
    We're still a country that at its core gets up and makes the coffee and heads off to do whatever's on the calendar, with the appropriate levels of joy or dread.

    What the fringe does seeps into the internet and onto social media everywhere, sure.

    But, the rest of us --even while rolling eyes at our social media feeds these days-- still know we have to pay the rent or the land tax, make it to the dentist on time or remember to buy some brand of cereal on the way home.

    In a way it's okay if a lot of people regard all this that's going on as some kind of reality TV extension of what Donald Trump was always about. The "all this" encompasses all the conspiracy theory rollouts too. To flip the TV to a ballgame is still pretty American.

    On the other hand when it does come to "the news" lately, it's hard even for people paying a lot of attention to sort out what matters and what's noise. I start with "On the Bright Side" in my local paper for a shot of optimism, then go online for international news first so I don't get too distracted and forget about it. Then I glance at local news, then at political news, roll my eyes and skim national news that doesn't seem political and then rush to the cartoons and the baseball scores, what can I say. The All Star Game is July 11...
     
  8. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #8
    I wasn't addressing the whole "Trump is colluding with the Russians" thing. I was simply responding to darksithpro's contention that, "Putin wins when we fight among each other."

    So I offered him the opportunity to stop fighting and come to agree with the other side, just in case stealing victory from Putin was that important to him.
     
  9. ibookg409 Suspended

    ibookg409

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    #9
    Why would we agree with the diminutive polyps from the left? They've been slandering us for so long.
     
  10. Night Spring macrumors G5

    Night Spring

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    #10
    I agree with what you are saying about Trumo, but what do you mean about Nixon and Reagan? I was too young during Watergate to know what happened, but I thought it was just Nixon scheming to get himself reelected -- I didn't think he had any help from foreign countries. And I'm not aware of any election-related issues with Reagan at all.
     
  11. jpietrzak8 thread starter macrumors 65816

    jpietrzak8

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    #11
    Not sure I'd agree with that, really. This is the "Nixon helped to scuttle Vietnam peace talks until after election" and the "Reagan convinces Iran not to release hostages until after election" stuff, right? Sure, I can believe that both foreign parties may have wanted to delay acting until after the election in order to get a better deal. But honestly, I think every foreign actor takes the American election into account every four years, trying to decide whether they will get a better result pre- or post- election.

    However, the whole "come on into our country and try to directly pervert the election" is on an entirely different level. There's only so much we can do to influence how foreign nations act on their own soil, or deal with events outside of our control. You can say that hinting to a foreign entity that waiting will provide a better result as a dirty trick. But that's part of the international relationships game.

    The thing is, that intense self-centeredness is part and parcel of a very simplistic world-view. With Trump, what you see is what you get. There are no hidden levels to this man. (Just look at how impossible it is for him to manage classified intelligence!) I just don't see how people can believe that he's managed some massive deal to bring the Russians in and have them throw the election to him.
     
  12. Fancuku macrumors 6502a

    Fancuku

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    #12
    Yep, as always tolerance of others to them means to agree with them.
    Don' tell me tgat you are surprised.
     
  13. jpietrzak8 thread starter macrumors 65816

    jpietrzak8

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    #13
    But isn't that the problem? This isn't a question of "you guys are wrong, you should see the light and join our side". Both sides are wrong, and getting wronger! :) I personally have deep problems with Trump as a man, but the whole Russia collusion thing is a distraction from the true problems of the man; and I think it shows that the entire political world in the US is becoming so distracted by fantasies that they can no longer deal with the truth...
    --- Post Merged, Jun 15, 2017 ---
    Ah, yes, "slander". It's always them slandering us. Never us slandering them. :(
     
  14. darksithpro macrumors regular

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    #14

    Basically what you're saying is he's too incompetent to orchestrate such a conspiracy theory?
     
  15. SLC Flyfishing Suspended

    SLC Flyfishing

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    #15
    :rolleyes:

    I'll extend the same invite to you. Start agreeing with us!

    Problem solved.
     
  16. jpietrzak8 thread starter macrumors 65816

    jpietrzak8

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    #16
    Personally, I do find that argument compelling. ;) But really, the main issue is: Trump gains absolutely nothing by bringing the Russians in, at any level. Trump has been building a base of support for almost a decade now, with his birther comments, with his support for the alt-right, with his incessant appearances on TV shows, on talk radio, on social media. The man didn't need any foreign help; indeed, having a foreign country involved would only serve to harm his prospects, not help them. So even if you do believe Trump is sneaky enough to get away with such a deal, there's no reason for him to do it in the first place...
     
  17. jkcerda macrumors 6502

    jkcerda

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    #17
    Put Hillary in jail first
     
  18. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #18
    Reagan is a less substantiated than Nixon. But here is some background ...
    and ...
    Now I don't want to get lost in an argument over these two instances. The main point being that it isn't a given that our leaders are immune from acting out of self-interest over the interests of the nation. And donald trump hasn't demonstrated that he deserves the label "patriot" simply because he ran for and won the presidency.
     
  19. Night Spring macrumors G5

    Night Spring

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    #19
    I agree with you about Trump not being able to pull off any sophisticated collusion. However, I can imagine Putin saying, look I threw the election to you, you owe me a favor, and Trump saying, sure, want me to lift the sanctions? Especially since it appears lifting sanctions gives the Trump organization some opportunities to make business deals in Russia.
     
  20. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #20
    If you don't agree, then Putin wins. :(
     
  21. darksithpro macrumors regular

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    #21

    The only relation I could ever find between Trump and co with the Russians was with bankers to raise capitol for his real estate business prior to the election. I know he had a rash of bad luck and bankruptcies in the past and that raising capitol for his endeavors became more difficult, so he went in search for capitol all over the place. But that's just business, that doesn't mean he did anything wrong.
    --- Post Merged, Jun 15, 2017 ---

    The new slogan when someone disagrees with you. If you disagree with me, then Putin wins!:(
     
  22. jpietrzak8 thread starter macrumors 65816

    jpietrzak8

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    #22
    Neither does he deserve the label "traitor". I do believe his actions will eventually cause harm to this country, but that's mainly because I disagree with the fundamental principles behind his actions. I don't believe that he has ever consciously tried to harm the country.
     
  23. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #23
    There are now enough people looking into the allegations that it doesn't matter what anybody believes. The investigations will determine the fate of donald trump, and that is fine by me.

    If the investigations doesn't find anything, then I am completely fine with that result. If, on the other hand, they come to a different conclusion, can we count on our conservative friends to likewise agree with their finding? I certainly hope so.
    --- Post Merged, Jun 15, 2017 ---
    You keep believing that.

    I'm waiting for the investigations to conclude.

    Any belief I hold in the meantime is a figment of my imagination.
    --- Post Merged, Jun 15, 2017 ---
    I disagree.

    Oh noes! He wins again!
     
  24. jpietrzak8, Jun 15, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2017

    jpietrzak8 thread starter macrumors 65816

    jpietrzak8

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    #24
    Are you kidding me? :) Nowhere in anything Trump has said or done throughout his entire life would lead me to believe he'd ever play second fiddle to someone else.

    I cannot imagine anyone getting anywhere with Trump by saying "hey, you would have lost that election without my help, so give me something in return". There is no way in heaven Trump will ever admit that he couldn't have won that election without someone else's help.
     
  25. darksithpro macrumors regular

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    #25

    The thing about Trump is you cannot analyze and predict him like a politician. He's a business man, not a Republican, or a Democrat. That means his whole thought process is completely different from all the Politicians he's working with and against. I guess that can be terribly frightening to some people, that a man with no previous political, or governance experience is at the helm. I bet the fact that since he's so unpredictable, that sends shivers down peoples spine.
     

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