Possible further evidence of surface water erosion on Moon

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by Dubdrifter, Jan 31, 2018.

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  1. Dubdrifter Suspended

    Dubdrifter

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    #1
    This has just popped up on Youtube ….. on a Channel I have referenced before …… surfed around quickly to see if these images were discussed already elsewhere …. didn't see this canyon featured…..



    Any moon geologists want to pitch in with theories on how these channels were formed?

    As mentioned in the notes ….. this could have interesting implications for those wanting to set up a colony on the Moon ….. this area might have water just below the surface.
     
  2. Dabber56 macrumors newbie

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    #2
    Interesting...it would be good if geologists could also tell us roughly when these erosion formations might have been created .
     
  3. Dubdrifter thread starter Suspended

    Dubdrifter

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    #3
    Must have been originally a substantial period of flow to cut such a long broad channel. The inner groove suggests a more recent cut through the canyon.
    Seeing as no one has mentioned this feature being highlighted before, thought it appropriate to name the canyon Dubdroid's Scar and the area Dub Eden Colony 1.

    However, there might be another contender site for the first settlement on the Moon.

    http://heraldkeeper.com/news/chandr...nce-widespread-water-lunar-surface-34332.html
     
  4. Dubdrifter thread starter Suspended

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    #4
    Mmm …. Interesting …. this data has been up here on MacRumours and on Youtube for quite a while now ….. with absolutely no interest from the worldwide amateur/professional astronomy community whatsoever. :eek:

    1,750 odd people have clicked on this thread and only 63 viewed the Youtube video …..fear of Youtube/malware/suspicions this is CGI fake? :cool:…..Gentlemen, LROC is real, the pictures of the moon are real too.(If NASA can be trusted) No CGI here, if you follow the instructions in the video you can see for yourselves by tapping in the coordinates in the mapping section.

    Makes me convinced MacRumours is no longer the place to get intelligent comment and feedback anymore, especially on astronomy subjects + SETI ….. what with Apple's rapid decline from being the tool of the Professional from their MacBook Pro/Snow Leopard heyday …..
    [If you've tried to reduce your storage on iCloud recently without Trashing it off all your Apple devices ….. you'll know what I mean].:mad:

    Of course there could be one other reason astronomers are not interested in sites on the moon suitable for colonisation …..<<The moon landings were 'faked' and 'colonial expansion in space is currently technologically impossible'>> ….. which of course is ridiculous …. isn't it??;) …… although some of the evidence suggesting the moon landings were 'faked' is pretty convincing. Especially the stuff Stanley Kubrick is supposed to have shot …. check it out …. very interesting. (Won't supply a link …. nobody clicks on them around here)
     
  5. RichardMZhlubb Contributor

    RichardMZhlubb

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    #5
    Could it be that people have no interest in responding substantively to someone who has repeatedly posted fake astronomy videos on here? I really don’t understand what you get out of spreading this nonsense.
     
  6. MC6800 macrumors 6502

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    #6
    This question was definitively answered long ago by Apollo 15.
     
  7. Dubdrifter, Feb 22, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 11, 2018

    Dubdrifter thread starter Suspended

    Dubdrifter

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    #7
    I think it is important people judge each thread posting on the evidence presented from whatever source ….. on the merits of the piece, objectively and with intelligence ….

    Your opinion all my threads have been 'fake' astronomy, is a rather sweeping statement that others might judge to not be strictly correct.
    But let's not be distracted, back to the subject on the card.

    What do you think these 'real' pictures of the moon's surface tell us about the likely prospect this could be a good spot to set up our 'First International/Intergalactic Moon Base'?

    …… the reason I use the word "Intergalactic" is because I am hoping any Interplanetary cousins who might be passing by in their UFO's might drop in again on us ….. but this time probably receive a slightly more Humanistic example of our Planet's Hospitality!;) A glass of Moonshine possibly and another chat about their advanced technology we hope!

    All those Backwoods Farmers with their shotguns shootin' up 'em critters probably made aliens think we are rather a dangerous species ….. and not just to ourselves! :p

    Yeh, I saw the pics …. and more recent ones, even clearer …. just threw that in for a reaction …. cleared the tumbleweed;)

    Any thoughts on the water erosion? ….. do you think there are periodic spring eruptions ….. or do you think the inner channel is very old and totally dried up now?

    But the source could still be a good spot to initially drill down - being possibly a spring(?) outlet in the past.
     
  8. rafark macrumors 6502a

    rafark

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    #8
    Is that... Obama's paint? o_O
     
  9. Dubdrifter thread starter Suspended

    Dubdrifter

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    #9
    :D Have to keep this thread 'astronomical' ….. I haven't enough posts to go into 'Political' sections yet and comment.

    No ….. the pics are real:) …. instructions in video how to get to the source + map co-ordinates etc LROC website ….. run by NASA(?)
     
  10. RichardMZhlubb, Feb 22, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 11, 2018

    RichardMZhlubb Contributor

    RichardMZhlubb

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    #10
    It's not an opinion, it's an accurate assessment. I've happened across three of your threads in recent months. The first two were promoting falsified hoax videos.
     
  11. Dubdrifter thread starter Suspended

    Dubdrifter

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    #11
    For those who can analyse the 'real' moon pictures in this 'real' video from this real LROC website maybe we can stick to the discussion in the OP
    Thank you, Richard …. care to join this discussion?
     
  12. RichardMZhlubb Contributor

    RichardMZhlubb

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    #12
    No.
     
  13. Tigger11 macrumors 6502

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    #13
    One word
    VULCANISM

    -Tig
     
  14. Dubdrifter thread starter Suspended

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    #14
    This particular feature looks more water/ liquid cut wouldnt you say? Aren’t larval channels different .... unless you can link to examples.
     
  15. Tigger11 macrumors 6502

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    #15
    No I don't think it looks more water cut, and neither I nor anyone else on this site knows what larval channels are.
    -Tig
     
  16. Scepticalscribe Contributor

    Scepticalscribe

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    #16
    Agreed absolutely.

    I think that the OP may have channels of lava in mind.
     
  17. ApfelKuchen macrumors 68030

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    #17
    I think it looks like a giant spermatozoa impact crater. (Not exactly larval, but similar.) Something to do with the whole Panspermia theory, only much bigger.

    Or it could be a collapsed lava tube.

    But if it was water... kind of odd that there aren't any branching side channels, or evidence of a large basin/lake (yeah, it could have poured down a rabbit hole...)
     
  18. Dubdrifter, Feb 26, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2018

    Dubdrifter thread starter Suspended

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    #18
    Thanks for your input, yes, no branching side channels does make it’s formation mechanism very mysterious and unlikely to be linked to the existence of a very early, climatic effect Can’t seem to shake my instinct it is a water feature though. Shape of the inner channel and jagged nature of the main feature so similar to earth erosion features. With the inner channel carved within it, wonder if this inner cut is unique on our lunar surface .... if it is, then this formation is down to a very unique set of conditions.
    If someone could take a high resolution picture of this curling inner cut, experts might determine the direction of the ‘flow’ left to right, or right to left of the frame of view ..... and maybe close-up detail would confirm water or lava most likely.

    With there being next to no evidence the moon had a climate many many years ago, the only theory I can come up with to how this challenging feature was formed is that something of modest size hit at an angle at the ‘spermatazoan head’ end which created a ‘spring head’ rupture of a sustained pressurised subterranean water supply which oozed out over a sustained period creating the giant erosion ‘trickle’ canyon which eventually evapourated ...... then years later, another pressure burst occured on a minor scale cutting the inner channel.
    Talked to a geographer/geologist and a theologian fairly knowledgeable in astronomy who also suggested possible lava flow, but they weren’t aware of the latest scanning data (linked to in post 3)which suggests substantial subsurface water deposits still existing below the surface.
    The Indian mission probe Chandrayaan-1 is changing theories on moon water.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_water
     
  19. Tigger11 macrumors 6502

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    #19
    Water cant exist on any part of the moon that is exposed to sunlight, the solar radiation on the moon destroys it in a process called photdissociation. Is there water on the moon, yes but in ice form in the bottom of deep craters near the poles and underground. There isnt flowing water on the surface now or any time in the past so there are no dry river beds or river canyons on the moon. Shake that silly incorrect instinct off.
    -Tig
     
  20. Dubdrifter thread starter Suspended

    Dubdrifter

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    #20
    The reason I highlighted Dubdroid’s observation was because it looked like an unusual feature for the moon to have, bearing in mind current thinking on the moon’s creation and theories on whether it ever had an atmosphere in it’s timeline. Planetary and moon bodies go through evolutions as you know ..... and atmospheres evapourate as eco-balances are upset and circumstances change.

    I always open threads to get answers and opinions(and the odd funny comment!) ..... so would be interested in your reasons for the assertion I’ve underlined in your reply ..... puzzled how you could be so certain? .... seeing as water discovery on the moon is a relatively recent accepted ‘fact’ and theories on the moon’s creation and it’s evolution are also in a controversial state of flux as recent new research shifts perspectives.

    [Theories on the evolution of Mars being a classic example of this state of flux with the discovery of polar ice caps etc].

    Bearing in mind this feature looks fairly unique with this inner channel cutting later through the main feature …really interested in your opinion on how this feature was possibly formed in the two stages of it’s ‘evolution’- and by what substance.
     
  21. Tigger11 macrumors 6502

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    #21
    There are no ACTUAL theories of moon creation that have it with an atmosphere and flowing water. Note I am talking about ACTUAL theories with scientific backup, not crazed Youtube theories about the moon being created by a aliens, a projector, a flat disk, glued to the back of a turtle etc. Without an atmosphere our moon has no flowing water. As for the feature you are so interested in as I have pointed out several times, it is VOLCANIC in nature, the Moon at one time had lots of active volcanoes. The Mares of the Moon, once thought to be ancient seas are actually huge planes of volcanic stone (mostly basaltic), volcanoes without water and in 1/6 gravity act different then those on Earth. The only actually debate on the item you are talking about is whether its lava flow, a collapsed lava tube or some mashup of the two.
    -Tig
     
  22. Dubdrifter thread starter Suspended

    Dubdrifter

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    #22
    With scientist still unsure how the moon was formed, and with the relatively recent discovery of subterranean water sources and the possibility of ice collecting in craters close to the ‘poles’ ..... it’s wisest the idea of water erosion not be discounted .... as current theories are hardly ‘set in stone’ at the moment, with new research always upsetting ‘set thinking and scientific lore’.

    Although I agree there is practically no evidence on the moon that suggests it once may have had an atmosphere ..... never say never ...... as extensive volcanic activity may have covered up evidence of water erosion in the past and may have left a few very isolated examples exposed. This activity could also have created ‘pressure’ on subterranean water reservoirs. Personally, I think the main feature highlighted in the video seems pretty unusual for the lunar surface, and therefore unlikely to have been caused by atmospheric factors.

    Sorry to irritate you, but I don’t buy your theory that this is a Volcanic feature.

    Evidence of volcanic activity on the moon is well-known and well-recognised .... and this is clearly different. Even to geographers/geologists of modest academic ability this is a canyon formed by some sort of two stage ‘erosion’ .... not volcanic action.

    However, If you can furnish convincing examples (that are clearly volcanic) of similar features on other planets or moons that mirror closely this lunar feature in character, I will buy your theory.

    If anyone has a similar example of this type of feature on the lunar surface, with this ‘inner’ very meandering secondary ‘cut’ within it ..... please post it on here. It would be nice to know this is not a unique ‘canyon’ formation action going on. And if this IS a lunar ‘volcanic’ feature ..... then, with the extent of volcanic activity on the moon, we should see similar examples.

    And this is the point, studying pictures of volcanic eruptions and lava flow do show cut channels but these are ‘filled with lava deposit’ and none is visible here and this secondary cut with it’s ‘meandering’ feature doesn’t look to be lava-related to be honest .....Any neutral want to comment?

    Below is an example of a water cut canyon on a planet with an atmosphere (Earth) with side stream channels running in and cliff edge erosion. The moon erosion feature doesn’t have these side features because there is no current atmospheric activity on the moon. ;)But there could be one in the future if some cataclysmic event happens! :p Never say never!

    https://goo.gl/images/VweqRV

    Note the meandering main channel .... very similar to the lunar feature ....

    Here are examples of volcanic lava formation I dug out to compare:

    https://www.google.co.uk/search?cli.....mobile-gws-wiz-img.......30i10.XtKTCWbJHME=

    Nothing here vaguely mirrors the feature highlighted on the moon. (The Grand Canyon being cut mostly by water erosion).
    But if you can dig out pics to prove your point, I would be interested.
    —————————
    The crater highlighted at the end of the video with the flow erosion from it’s broken lip, seems to require a different explanation again from the main feature.

    Try this theory .... maybe the lunar poles, like earth’s poles have shifted over time, possibly after significant impacts of various types - planetary/large meteoritic - and plate tectonic drift

    Maybe this area was once ‘polar’ and had significant deposits of surface ice and subterranean water just below the surface.

    Maybe this was once an ancient ice-filled impact crater located at the lunar poles, as lunar orientation changed, ice melt burst the lip .... and the slight water erosion feature was formed before evapouration.

    Other erosion features in this area highlighted in the video could have been by a similar limited period of ice melt/evapouration/porous absorption.

    The main feature could have been created by an impact at the head of the ‘spermatazoa’ which fractured a substantial pressurised subterranean water ‘spring’ that welled up and eroded the canyon over a long period as it evapourated and was reabsorbed.

    The secondary channel being formed much later when the ‘pressure plug’ burst again at the same point .... to slightly erode a new more meandering lesser channel cut.

    This makes more sense than the volcanic option. Guess we need more evidence and opinions on this.

    .....Or settle we conclude differently.:)
     
  23. MC6800 macrumors 6502

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    #23
    How do you explain Apollo 15's finding no signs of water at Hadley Rille? Rilles are the wrong approach.
     
  24. Dubdrifter, Mar 19, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2018

    Dubdrifter thread starter Suspended

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    #24
    Interesting comment ..... Wiki gives this detail on the area: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadley–Apennine#Rima_Hadley

    And this on the overview: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mare_Imbrium

    Which mentions the area sustaining proto-planet collision. Strangely they conclude this damage was probably sustained in the asteroid belt rather than in collision with Earth?? - just before it settled within Earth’s gravitational pull ...... which is the more obvious explanation.

    Thinking aloud I was wondering if there was any evidence in the samples taken by Apollo 15 that might suggest that this impact site might contain slightly unusual ‘cross-pollination’ minerals that points to a collision with Earth and if so, where do scientists think the impact zone was, on the Earth’s surface to see if the mineral ‘footprint’ there matches the Moon ‘footprint’
    ..... however, if the possible impact zone is under the ocean, it could be difficult to get a match.

    Recent mineral analysis of Moon samples shows the moon comes from the same ‘genesis’ source as the Earth ..... which further complicates location of the impact zone on Earth. Guessing the heat and forces of such planetary collisions must create unique mineralisation of the rocks ..... interesting to know if this differs significantly from faster moving and possibly hotter meteorite impacts.

    Looking at the Hadley Rille + the site of the Apollo 15 landing, it is unfortunate they didn’t land at the ‘southern’ end of the ‘channel’ ..... the dark patch at the end looks almost like a ‘reservoir lake’ that may have burst it’s banks and trickled north cutting a channel before evapourating. If they had taken core samples there, surely that was a better option to finding evidence of water on the moon ...... they might even have struck lucky and gone skinny dipping and maybe done a spot of fishing too! Who knows what species ‘aliens’ may have introduced into those ‘stock ponds’.:p

    With so many suspicious ‘water channels’ visible on the Moon, it is strange scientists and others keep desperately clinging to volcanism and this ‘collapsed lava tube theory’ each time ..... which is a fairly rare phenomenon, rather than just embracing the far more logical ‘water erosion theory’ followed by evapouration.

    Collapsed lava tubes may happen once ..... but twice within the same ‘canyon’ - and with such ‘twists and turns’? ..... pretty unlikely.:rolleyes:

    Water on the moon is a reality ..... time to embrace possible water erosion there as a reality too .... lunar scientist/geologists just need to fine tune the theory how these formations came about.
     
  25. Scepticalscribe Contributor

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    #25
    Thank you for posting possible explanations that actually make sense.
     
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