PRC censoring internet searches regarding the Tianamen Square massacre

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by VulchR, Jun 4, 2012.

  1. VulchR macrumors 68020

    VulchR

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    #1
    It appears that the government of the PRC are still trying to bury their past crimes (BBC link). But then again, what can you expect of country that conspires with Russia to block UN action in Syria?

    I do wish Apple would purchase less from the PRC.
     
  2. Happybunny macrumors 68000

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    #2
    Perhaps they just learnt that bad habit from the WEST.


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17734735

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12997138

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_Inquiry

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/usvetoes.html

    Just Google any country and you will see that human rights abuses happen in every country.
     
  3. niuniu macrumors 68020

    niuniu

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    #3
  4. VulchR thread starter macrumors 68020

    VulchR

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    #4
    Thank you for so eloquently proving my point: you can Google this information, whereas the people in the PRC cannot. :rolleyes:

    So in your mind the legal release of a prisoner on humanitarian grounds equates with using tanks to kill protestors? Certainly that is what your post implies.
     
  5. iJohnHenry macrumors P6

    iJohnHenry

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    #5
    It would seen we have quickly gone from a government censoring something nasty, to pointing fingers, in a general discussion of Man's inhumanity to Man.

    Vulchr is spot-on.

    Now that we no longer have to rely on the printed word, which can and has been altered over time *coughBiblecough*, the Internet brings with it a whole new set of problems for revisionists.
     
  6. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #6
    I just searched for all these terms (in English and Chinese to the best of my ability) on Google and I don't appear to get any "relevant" results on the first page.

    Maybe google is censoring these terms for everyone (which seems rather unlikely) or maybe the search engine simply isn't clever enough to return "relevant" results for such euphemisms.

    Sounds like a slow news day at the BBC and/or more anti-Chinese propaganda coming from the western media.
     
  7. Happybunny macrumors 68000

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    #7
    freedom of information is only a very recent idea.

    After the United States passed its Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) in 1966, FOIAs or Access to Information Acts (AIAs) proliferated rapidly with Denmark and Norway passing equivalent laws in 1970, France and The Netherlands in 1978, Australia, Canada and New Zealand in 1982, Hungary in 1992, Ireland andThailand in 1997, South Korea in 1998, the United Kingdom in 2000, Japan and Mexico in 2002, India and Germany in 2005.[5]


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_government


    China
    China adopted its current constitution on 4 December 1982.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRC

    Give it time China has made great steps in the last few years, and will in time catch up. Along the way it will of course make mistakes, and some times back slide, but it will in time become a truly modern country.

    What worries me more is that people in the west have all this information, and still go to war over WMD that did not exist.
     
  8. niuniu, Jun 4, 2012
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2012

    niuniu macrumors 68020

    niuniu

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    #8
    You think governing over a Billion people over a vast piece of land is a joke? Human rights, when people are still suffering from starvation? Your suggestion to take jobs away from the Chinese is going to help that?

    Worst thing for China right now is instability, and there are already groups threatening that.

    Sit in your Ivory Tower preaching human rights all you want. When you know something about governing over a Billion people then maybe you'll get taken seriously. You can't even build a bloody tram in Edinburgh without blowing half a Billion pounds.

    China have been censoring Tiananmen Sq. information on the internet for the best part of a decade now, to even mention it now like it's newsworthy marks you out as out as clueless.

    Chinese citizens will have their day of democracy and freedom. Knee-jerk reactions, and repetitive criticism to old news do nothing to speed that along.
     
  9. VulchR thread starter macrumors 68020

    VulchR

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    #9
    What exactly do you believe is propaganda - the massacre or the censorship? If you truly doubt either, then any further discussion with you would be fruitless. FWIW - I got more than 10 pages of links when I Googled 'Tianamen Square', so I am not sure what your post was about. :confused:

    Erm... the WMD did exist, and they were used on Kurds and Iranians. The issue was whether there was sufficient evidence to conclude that the WMD were destroyed after the first Gulf war as per the UN requirements. The US & UK should have waited for the UN to complete its work on this issue, but it is not as though the Hussein government had much credibility at the time. It was reasonable to distrust them, if not to go to war.

    Nice one! Callousness toward the rights of others and anti-Scottish sentiment rolled all in one... (I seem to recall a £789 million Millennium dome built south of the Scottish border). Anyways, perhaps if the PRC let go of areas it has 'assimilated', like the some of the Western provinces and Tibet, the task of governing the nation would be less complicated.

    It's funny. There's an uproar in these forums when Western governments try to ban the PirateBay, or monitor communications, but when censorship happens in the PRC, there's barely a voice raised in objection.
     
  10. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #10
    And let's not pretend that the Western path is always the best one.

    Take something like high speed rail - because we have to consult the public it takes us far longer to complete the project than it would in China - which is worse even for the people who live on the route.

    If you build the line over 5 years after 5 years you can stand in the garden and hear what the train line will be like - so you know how it will be so the risk of buying the house is much reduced.

    By taking 15 years you add a huge amount of stress to those challenging the project and you add a lot of risk as it will be hard to sell the house for a long long time.

    Even if someone on the route has to sell now because the buyer would intend to keep the house for five years (otherwise why buy) even though they will take a risk it won't at the end of the day be hard to sell as the end buyer will be able to know what it's like finished easily.

    ----------

    If you read the article that's not what the BBC searched for - instead they used a bunch of emphamisms for the event - none of which returned any relevant results for me either in English or with an image search in Chinese - and I'm not in China so there doesn't seem to be any likelihood of censorship.

    You release that the Chinese have unambiguously ruled those territories for several hundred years - if not since the 13th century?

    It's not clear there is any censorship occurring - and certainly no censorship that hasn't been in place for at least a decade.
     
  11. ender land macrumors 6502a

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    #11
    Seems one of the causes of "threatening" might be in the rest of your post:

     
  12. VulchR thread starter macrumors 68020

    VulchR

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    #12
    Quite. The problem is that in the PRC the rush to build high speed rail was bad for the people in the trains. See link about the Wenzhou train accident.

    But hey, at least the trains run on time.
     
  13. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #13
    How is having world class infrastructure bad for the people?


    Ah yes, a train crash with a 200km/h train.

    A decade ago in the UK we had a crash every year involving a 200 km/h train - even though we have less track at that speed than China and that we had been running trains at that speed since the early 1970's whereas the Chinese have only been doing so for 5 years or so.

    At worst you can say the Chinese rail system is as safe as the British one ten years ago - which frankly for a developing country is an astonishing achievement.

    And no-one has really been held to account for the crashes in Britain even a decade later - so its not as if we've held people to account properly either.
     
  14. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #14
    The most interesting thing about the Wenzhou accident is that the Chinese people clearly got very upset about it - and therefore showing that they hold their rulers to account more than we do to ours in our liberal free western democracies.
     
  15. niuniu macrumors 68020

    niuniu

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    #15
    I reckon VuchR gives us a detailed exposition of human rights movements in China and their progression in the past 10 years, through both court and legislature.

    Just so we know we're dealing with someone actually informed on Chinese human rights development, and not simply someone picking up regurgitated ham-fed pickings from the Beeb.
     
  16. jnpy!$4g3cwk macrumors 65816

    jnpy!$4g3cwk

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    #16
    Rhetorically speaking, this is a "straw man". Google "rhetoric straw man"

    Oh, about PRC censorship: are you denying it exists, or, saying it is a good thing? Here's another article about it:


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18327767
     
  17. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #17
    Not really, it is merely an example where the western way of doing things is inferior for everyone.

    I have no doubt there is some censorship, but given the lack of hits for the given terms outside China I am denying that it exists in this case.

    Given after looking a little more deeply there is no evidence of the first set of censorship how can we possibly trust the BBC about this second set?
     
  18. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #18
    It seems Google translate screwed up my search term for six-four, which does indeed appear to return relevant results.
     
  19. VulchR thread starter macrumors 68020

    VulchR

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    #19
    And I suppose you are an expert, rather than a MR reader like me who found something disturbing in the news and wanted to discuss it here.

    In any case, you would like expert opinions not from the BBC, so here they are:

    1. Freedom House lists the PRC as 'not free' - see link
    2. The Guardian lists China as one of the top human rights offenders - see link and also this link
    3. Amnesty International's 2012 report does not flatter the PRC, pointing out that its increased economic power has led to a reduction in international pressure to improve human rights in the country - see link.
     
  20. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #20
    None of which means that China hasn't significantly improved its human rights record over the past 20 years.

    Neither does it mean that China is censoring a series of largely bizarre euphemisms for the 1989 Tiananmen Square incident.

    The only non-bizarre euphemism in the original BBC article seems to be six-four. which given the Wikipedia article in Chinese on the incident is titled literally "six four event" or "six four incident" that seems to be its common name. Therefore it is a big improvement if the Chinese government is usually allowing searches for six-four to return results about the incident, and it doesn't seem to be a likely to be a regression if they aren't generally allowing such searches.
     
  21. niuniu macrumors 68020

    niuniu

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    #21
    Maybe my question wasn't clear. I asked you for a list of developing improvements in human rights areas in the past 10 years in China. Anyone can go on google and get Western sources putting down China. But that's amateur, im sure you're much smarter than that. Anyone with intellectual honesty will want to know the facts. Since you're so interested in human rights in China I'm assuming you have some?

    Ill make it easy for you. 5 years of development.
     
  22. VulchR thread starter macrumors 68020

    VulchR

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    #22
    Frankly all the information I have found, with the exception of some material in the Amnesty report, was rather negative. You appear to be the expert. You list them.
     
  23. Eraserhead, Jun 5, 2012
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2012

    Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #23
    If you read through this thread and do a bit of background reading in decent sources (i.e. academic or similar, but also high quality Wikipedia articles like Tibet during the Ming Dynasty) it becomes pretty clear that a lot of content in the western media presents a really rather unfairly harsh picture of China.

    Believing that China had only ruled Tibet since 1950 gives a vastly different impression than the truth which is that they have ruled it since the start of the 18th century - if not earlier (with a brief exception between 1912 and 1950, but it had no international recognition and other parts of China were also basically independent at that time).

    With the railway crashes compare this and this on the Hatfield crash in the UK (the last major rail crash in the UK before they finally cleaned up their act) vs this or this on the Wenzhou crash which is more critical.

    While it may seem like a high burden that is why niuniu wants you to do some proper research in this area.
     
  24. VulchR thread starter macrumors 68020

    VulchR

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    #24
    Frankly I see niuniu's argument as rather irrelevant: First, I never made claims about trends. I simply stated that the PRC continues to censor information about Tianamen Square. I find that disturbing because it indicates to me that the government of the PRC is not trustworthy. Second, any improvement in human rights over the past 20 years does not mitigate an appalling human rights record now. I mean seriously, what's the argument being put forward? Trust the PRC goverment because they are only x% abusive as they used to be? Get real. It does not take 'proper research' to point out the logical flaws in such an argument. Third, the PRC's support of the current Syrian regime hardly demonstrates their concern for human rights or a positive influence on the global stage. Fourth, if niuniu wishes to prove how wonderful the PRC government is becoming, then niuniu should provide the evidence, not me. Instead, niuniu chose the generic rhetorical tactic of accusing me of not being an expert, which I never claimed to be. My 'amateur' status is not mutually exclusive with the PRC having a poor record on human rights.
     
  25. ThisIsNotMe macrumors 68000

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    #25
    China and Russia are jokes.
    The cold war never ended.
    Sad America no longer stand up for American values against these jokers.
     

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