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Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Ugg, Aug 20, 2007.
Welcome to the new "Gilded Age".
And yet, the masses think that immigration or terrorism are big concerns... Man, have they been successful at brainwashing us...
these kinds of averages are thrown off by all those at the high end. i'd like to see the stats for those making $100k and less. i bet the % drop would be much higher during that period.
When I see a good blue-collar American worker, supporting the aristocracy which exploits him/her, I shake my head in wonderment. Their 'masters' have convinced them that they owe their livelihood to those who would enslave them.
Myth: Republicans are good for businesses.
Fact: More small businesses fail under their leadership.
Fact: Virtually all recessions/depressions have happened under their watch.
Fact: Republican economics are based on wealth preservation.
Myth: Republicans practice smaller government and fiscal responsibility
Fact: Republicans run up huge debt, knowing they will not have to pay for it.
....and so it goes.
Might want to put in the current downward spin the US economy is going in is cause by the time we where under Clinton watch where loans where giving out very easy to people with poor credit who should of never gotten them. Particle home loans and loans against one's home.
Well now people are defaulting on those loans and some lenders have had to declare bankruptcy. Also I might like to add those same loans where given out due to acts passed because of Democrats in power during that time. We are just paying for it now.
Problem we run into is looking at when things happen is people look at the who is currently in power but they do not look at the events that lead up to the down turns in the economy nor do they understand that it has an up and down cycle in it that seems to repeat it self every 5-6 years.
Totally off-topic, but what's a blue collar worker?
Someone who does manual labor such as construction (i.e. your average joe).
Miembro de la clase obrera (el proletariado).
Thanks! Answer, English is fine. Actually, it's the reason I'm on Macrumors...
My family learned that one the hard way, my parents bussiness didn't failed, but certianly has not been help by Bush(reason for them voting for him in 2000, in 2004 they saw nothing had come from him, and Iraq war was terrible, so they voted for Kerry)
yeah, the non-rich getting less value for their hard earned cash is the bit that sucks. who cares if the richest now have 20 ferraris (or MacPros) instead of 10?
You forgot gays and abortionists. Also make good scapegoats. But yeah, they just keep falling for it.
What? You thought that they weren't?
I bet you're shocked that the successful people continue to be successful.
Oh, that's right. You expect the government to use taxation as a stick to beat wealth distribution into a more pallatable percentage.
I don't see anyone being shocked that the successful are continuing to be successful. It's the relative rate increase that the successful are accruing wealth and the resultant growing divide that's the problem. And remember the rest of society doesn't solely measure success by the dollar as you do.
You've got it backwards. People don't expect the government to use taxation to benefit the rich and enable them to become increasingly wealthy at the detriment of those on middle to lower incomes.
It takes money to make money.
Most people scrape by and work hard to afford a nice home to live in and a car.
It's not surprising that the rich get richer... the extra money they have can be used to buy real estate, invest in the stock market or a number of other investments.
I see real estate as the big problem now. When the boom started, the rich started buying up properties and flipping them - making a profit and raising the prices that the average joe had to pay. Suddenly houses cost double what they did a few years ago (at least where I live)... and property taxes have skyrocketed as well. So, now many more people can't even afford a house unless they buy something far outside the city.
So...you're okay with the current system, in which the rich use government to skew income away from the poor and middle class and towards them?
I am shocked that the US government continues to subsidize the uber wealthy and corporations at the expense of the individual.
Of course he is. That kind of wealth redistribution is just fine. CEOs and shareholders should make all the money, while the people who do the the real work that actually requires talent, blood, sweat and tears make a pittance by comparison. Anybody ever see Fritz Lang's Metropolis? This is what the US is beginning to remind me of.
First, I'm not okay with the current system because I don't believe that taxation should be based on income. and second, what one person makes does not "skew" income away from someone else. If anything, the more I make, the more people who's services I use will make when I do business with them.
So, allowing people to keep their own money is considered a subsidy these days?
By the way, those corporations you think pay taxes? They are called employers of the individuals you want to help and they just pass the cost of the taxes on to the customers that are also the individuals that you want to help.
This discussion dovetails nicely with the thread on Venezuela. Anyone who professes a distaste for left-wing populists like Hugo Chavez should keep in mind that electing leaders of his sort is the direct result of a non-existant or declining middle class, and lots of poor people with little hope of advancing economically. The US is in the process of developing a "dumbbell economy," where the rich grab a steadily larger share of the pie, and the people near the middle and bottom slip further down. Anyone who doesn't get the consequences of this process is in serious denial.
Wow- talk about oversimplification. See my earlier post.
Ok, then what should taxes be based on?
As for you last sentence, that's just simply not true- at least that's not how it's working right now. All you have to do is look at Bush's immigration bill to see that's not the case. He wants to import cheap labor for a reason you know. It'll drive down business costs, right? Please, give me a break. If he can't import the labor, it'll just get outsourced, sort of like a lot of tech jobs these days.
I'm a big fan of the Fair Tax, but any use fee and consumption based sales tax appeals to me. The savings in manhours wasted calculating and processing income based taxes alone will yield billions. It also gets rid of tax cheats and also taxes those outside the system whether because they are illegal or even if they are just tourists.
I've read in various sources these last dozen years or so that in constant dollar terms, the buying power of the middle class has been in general decline. But, you don't have to be a gold-bug to watch the decline in purchasing power of all fiat money. That decline comes under the heading of "historical inevitability".
Right now, those who sold those over-valued houses to the suckers are smiling, all the way to the bank. Those who sold early and invested in rising-value assets are indeed getting richer. Same as those who bought in early to what became the dot-com bubble and were smart enough to get out before the bubble popped.
Then again, right now, a bunch of briefly-rich folks who thought the party would never end are finding that it's Sunday Morning Coming Down.
And those on the bottom strata of the economic pyramid will generally stay there, whether there's capitalism, socialism, Democrat or Republican
management of "the system".