psychology vs medieval medicine?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Bubble99, Aug 18, 2017.

  1. Bubble99 macrumors 6502

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    #1
    Are there still some countries in the world today that still practice medieval medicine? Even in US? Where science cannot explain the cause of the mental illness?

    Where people believe person is a weak character, immoral or possessed by evil spirits? Where doctors and scientists cannot explain the cause of it and what is going on? And the person should be locked up in mental hospital, exorcism done on him or her or hole cut in the person brain to allow evil spirits out or worse burning at the stake?

    May be ADHD, phobia, anxiety, obsessive compulsive, social deviant, antisocial personality disorder, alcoholism, addiction, drug addiction, manic personality to name some.

    Where scientists cannot explain the cause of it and what is going on. Why some people get it and not other people and what cause it. Where some countries and groups like in say deep south in US like Tennessee, Mississippi or Alabama turn to weak character, immoral or possessed by evil spirits as answer to it?

    If so what can science do in this case? Where what is on DSM book cannot explain the cause of some mental illness and people turn to medieval medicine for answer? Still goes on today even in the US.

    If so what can science do in this case? Some people say despite billions dollars put into psychology that they cannot explain some of the mental illness.
     
  2. A.Goldberg macrumors 68020

    A.Goldberg

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    #2
    Yes people still define some mental health conditions as being being spiritual deficits and/or consider sexual preference as mental illness (when it is not) or a spiritual deficit. In the past, people didn't have explanations for conditions like you listed, so people attempt to come out with their own explanations.

    I'm not sure "midievel" is the best term to use. It wasn't until relatively recently that people with mental health problems were assessed using scientific methods. It's also worth noting, in some cultures people with certain issues were treated as prophets and such.

    Even in the scientific community, some mental health conditions are overdignosed, in some cases underdiagnosing the cases with the actual condition.

    Some people simply do not believe in science, or are ignorant of science. I suppose further research and education are the best way to address this.

    Addiction is a bit of an odd duck when it comes to mental health treatment. Alcoholics and Narcotics anonymous (and other 12-step programs) are often reccomended by healthcare professionals and the courts. These can very much be considered faith-based healing. Despite their foundation relying on ones faith in a "higher power", there are numerous benefits from a psychological perspective and people do become sober in these programs.

    It might be helpful if you provided some context of why you are asking all of these questions.
     
  3. Bubble99 thread starter macrumors 6502

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    #3

    Probably because psychology can't explain the cause of most mental illnesses. Well some like PTSD are very obvious.

    May be why people turn to medieval medicine for answers.
     
  4. jerwin macrumors 68000

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    #4
    Oh dear.

     
  5. A.Goldberg, Aug 28, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2017

    A.Goldberg macrumors 68020

    A.Goldberg

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    #5
    Most mental illnesses have a known biological mechanism and genetic factors- bipolar, schizophrenia, OCD, clinical depression, anxiety, addiction, etc. The big exception to that would be personality disorders, which typically are believed to be more rooted in nurture, rather than nature, though genetics probably do play a role.

    Historically however, before modern psychiatry, there was little understanding of how the brain worked. Today however, psychology does recognize the biological underpinnings associated with psychological conditions.

    I think you may be underestimating the amount of science in psychology.
     
  6. Bubble99 thread starter macrumors 6502

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    #6
    What I'm saying is there is no blood work or CT scan. Most mental illnesses is base on symptoms not blood work or CT scan or MRI or some other test.

    What causes it are theories be it nature, nurture, chemical imbalance or childhood experiences. But root cause is not pinpoint.

    There no blood work, CT scan, MRI scan or any test for ADHD, phobia, anxiety, obsessive compulsive, social deviant, antisocial personality disorder, alcoholism, addiction, drug addiction, manic personality. All this is base on symptoms.

    When science cannot explain things than people make up their own theories be it good or bad.

    In past we use to lock everyone up for the slightest bit not normal . Now today we do not. Unless you going around hurting people or cutting your self or trying to kill your self. And even then it is temporary and they are back out. The revolving door of the police taking you to the hospital.

    Well medicine can keep problems at bay it would not cure you. Many of the mental illnesses can be managed with medicine it will not cure you.

    Than there are problems of over diagnose or wrong diagnosis.

    Than there are problem with taxpayers not happy everyone around them have mental illnesses costing taxpayers money.Or people over drama for slightest problem running to the doctor or asking for money.
     
  7. VulchR macrumors 68020

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    #7
    I write as a basic neuroscientist who has performed some preclinical research.

    Many mental health issues have no known obvious biological markers. Some have subtle biological markers that increase the risk of being diagnosed slightly, but not to the extent one could make a diagnosis reliably using them (e.g., many people diagnosed with schizophrenia have detectably atypical brain waves, but not all). And, to be honest, if we look at studies of genetic influences, the associations between individual genes and mental illnesses are vanishingly small. Apparently for most mental illness there are many genes associated, but the contribution of each gene to the risk is so minuscule that it cannot be considered a cause. Indeed I recently attended a talk on the genetic correlates of schizophrenia in which the speaker admitted that the sample size required to determine the role of each gene would be larger that the population of humans on the planet.

    Obviously people are trying to get around this, for example by looking at families of genes in a specific biochemical pathway rather than focusing on one gene, but my point is we're never going to see a smoking gun. We'll never see some biological marker that could diagnose somebody as having depression, mania, or schizophrenia. What we can do is track down the cause of certain symptoms and see if we can ameliorate them. For instance, people diagnosed with schizophrenia often report being unable to filter out distracting sounds (resulting in 'sensory inundation'). Researchers have now confirmed this in many people diagnosed with schizophrenia through studying brain scans and recording brain waves. Now we can look to see if we can alter the physiology of sensory systems to give these people relief so that they can filter out sensations that they don't want to attend to.

    My point is that the treatment of mental illness is hindered by a huge number of unknowns. Until we have a better picture of what is actually happening in people with mental health issues, there will always be problems with treatment. Indeed, even considering mental health issues as 'illness' has its drawbacks, for being atypical is not always reflective of illness. Applying 'illness' to addiction, for instance, is no so straightforward as you might think. At the end of the day, I believe that the only thing we can do is to try to alleviate suffering, and that might boil down to abandoning diagnostic labels that might be misleading and truly treating each person according to their needs and wishes.
     
  8. Bubble99 thread starter macrumors 6502

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    #8
    It still very disturbing that we are in the 21st century and doctors and scientists still do not know what causes mental health. Some think it is genetics, abuse or neglect by your parents or being raped. Some say it is a a chemical imbalance.
     
  9. VulchR macrumors 68020

    VulchR

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    #9
    The problem is the complexity of the nervous system and the other systems of the body with which it interacts. Understanding brains is not easy. I been a neuroscientist for 35 years now and even with the new techniques we get only a glimmer of what's going on, and often the data are not consistent. We are making progress though. My main worry is that mental health disorders might be so complex that we discover that we cannot treat the root causes without unacceptable side effects.
     
  10. jerwin macrumors 68000

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    #10
    Sounds like you're deep in the weeds, there, fella. A little specificity would help.
     
  11. Bubble99 thread starter macrumors 6502

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    #11
    There are lot things we don't understand in life but in order for the public to start having more faith in psychology as being reliable as medicine it must do two things.

    1. Show some biological be it chemical imbalance, brain abnormality, brain abnormality, lack of brain development, hormones abnormality, abnormal neurotransmitters or genetics as cause of mental illness .

    2. Better diagnose base on some blood work, CT scan, MRI scan or PET scan. Than symptoms only.

    Even if cure is still long ways away.
     
  12. jerwin macrumors 68000

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    #12
    I take it that you own stock in medical imaging companies.

    If it can't be seen with the aid of a thousand dollar test, it doesn't exist.
     
  13. Bubble99 thread starter macrumors 6502

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    #13
    Yes it called being texpayer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    You have medical symptoms taxpayers than want proof!!! I don't care if you have 3 ,5,7,9, or 12 PHD's

    Science is base on evidence and proof. Show the world proof some thing going wrong with the person body causing the symptoms some kind of chemical imbalance, brain abnormality or some thing.

    End this nature vs nurture arguments of cause of mental illness. .
     
  14. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    I think you're mistaking the fact that since science doesn't have all the answers, that must mean that science isn't looking deeply for those answers or continuously improving their understanding of the problems and possible causes to them.

    I'd try to be more patient about the process.
     
  15. Bubble99 thread starter macrumors 6502

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    #15
    Than you still will get people saying thing like people abusing welfare state in the name of mental illnesses. You got phobia, anxiety,fear, obsessive compulsive or ADHD. How bad really is it? Are you making it up. Not that bad? Too lazy to work? or some other problem? People over diagnosed or people under diagnosed or wrong diagnosed .

    This why some people mostly taxpayers say psychology is sorta of pseudoscience.

    Where biological be it chemical imbalance, brain abnormality, lack of brain development, hormones abnormality, abnormal neurotransmitters or genetics would clear that up in hear beat along with blood work or some scan be it MRI,,PET scan or some thing

    Or people saying why so many people these days have mental illnesses and sucking money from the welfare state.
     
  16. blackfox macrumors 65816

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    #16
    Man, I really wanted to address the age-old argument of cocaine vs leeches. Maybe I wandered in too soon...
     
  17. jerwin macrumors 68000

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  18. A.Goldberg macrumors 68020

    A.Goldberg

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    #18
    Am I the only one completely lost in this thread?
     
  19. VulchR macrumors 68020

    VulchR

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    #19
    Yes, for some reason people believe in psychological measurements more if they are associated with measured biological changes. However, as a neuroscientist I can tell you that having a biological measurement that reflects a behavioural symptom does not make the behavioural symptom any more real. Quite apart from anything, everything we do, from learning a new language to watching TV changes the structure of our nervous system. Thus, even with a biological correlate one cannot determine cause and effect very easily because abnormal behaviour might be causing abnormal brain changes. There are ongoing attempts to perform long-term developmental studies seeking relationships between biological measurements taken early in life with subsequent psychological symptoms. There have been some associations found, but that does not provide convincing proof of a biological cause. Even with all the brain scans etc. this is going to take quite some time to sort out, as you note. I wish it could go faster. :(
     
  20. Bubble99 thread starter macrumors 6502

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    #20
    Probably not much better. With out blood work, CT scan, MRI scan or PET scan there will always be question how much is really science than just theory the person has this problem or this is really a problem. Or the person just making up the symptoms to not work or get government hand outs.
     
  21. jerwin macrumors 68000

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    #21
    Sigh. malingering seems to be a particular bugbear of yours.
     
  22. juanm macrumors 65816

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    #22
    Was it you who already created another thread a few days ago about some other fringe crackpot theory? I think the mods deleted it.
     
  23. Bubble99 thread starter macrumors 6502

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    #23
    Ignore the OP start of thread that seems to be confusing some people what this thread is about.
     
  24. A.Goldberg macrumors 68020

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    #24
    Exactly. Most people KNOW when there is something wrong with their mental health. The definition of most condition includes "distress" to the individual. If the individual does not notice, certainty others will.

    Why do you keep saying this? We do have a lot of well theorized causes of mental health diosorsers. Do you not realize the extensive research between environment and genetics that makes every human being who they are?

    I think you underestimate the people who believe in psychology, at least in the modern world. If someone is hallucinating, they're going to take them to a psychiatrist, not a priest.

    As I mentioned moments ago, in many cases diagnostic testing is not necessary to know if someone is anxious, depressed, manic, schizophrenic, etc. Diagnostic blood work and imagining are some of the biggest drivers of healthcare costs. Why drive them higher for generally easily diagnosable conditions.

    This is one of the more offensive posts I've seen here in a while.

    Generally speaking number of mentally ill people are not increasing. There is more awareness around it and less stigma, so more people are getting help.

    Most people, unless they have severe mental illness do work. Many people manage their conditions every day. Some people cannot and must be institutionalize. Sadly, others end up in jail. Usually a person's ability to be a productive member of society is self evident. If they are so "lazy" as you call it to get out of bed and do anything, then there's probably something wrong.

    About 35% on welfare have mental health disorders. When you see the schizophrenic homeless people on the street most of them are too disabled to even collect welfare. Society has chosen to support the severely mentally ill because they'd otherwise be unable to support themselves. Its pretty hard for a psychotic person or someone so depressed or anxious they can't leave their house to hold a job.

    Many of these conditions are not curable, like most physical health conditions. The key is managing it. Something like 75% of schizophrenic people with treatment can live otherwise relatively normal lives. Some bipolar people are extremely high achieving, especially if they are often in hypomanic states.

    Your opinion on the matter here seems to be of the midevil mindset quite frankly.
     
  25. Huntn macrumors Pentium

    Huntn

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    #25
    Did anything in particular prompt this thread?

    My understanding is that human psychological issues are brain wiring/genetically based. As time goes by research will uncover the physical basis, but in the mean time mental therapy as a means of helping individuals come to terms with their issues is considered a viable treatment.

    If I'm up to date on the latest, of interest, we know we have it, but don't know what the basis of consciousness is. :)
     

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