Puppet Theatre

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by skunk, Aug 22, 2009.

  1. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2002
    Location:
    Republic of Ukistan
    #1
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/8215612.stm

    We have absolutely no idea why we are in Afghanistan. We have nowhere near enough troops there to achieve anything meaningful, even if we knew what we were trying to achieve. All we and the US have achieved is to substitute one bunch of corrupt thugs for another. The so-called "government" has no control outside Kabul, most of them are on the take, the position of women in Afghanistan is as bad as it was under the Taleban: in fact, the only thing that seems to be improved under the present regime appears to be the opium harvest.

    It is high time we left the area alone. If the USA wants to keep its sticky fingers in Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, and any other 'Stan it can pronounce the name of, cosying up to the worst and most corrupt of governments in its search for hegemony of freedom-loving nations, let it. We, the UK, have no legitimate business there.
     
  2. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Location:
    Chicago, Illinois
    #2
    It's too bad. I have always supported the Afghanistan effort. It's a shame what's happening though. If we can't get it together, then yes, we should leave.
     
  3. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2009
    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    #3
    I just say **** it, pull all of our troops from the area.
     
  4. obeygiant macrumors 68040

    obeygiant

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Location:
    totally cool
    #4
    From the article:


    If anything "we" are there to keep the cavemen Taliban from taking over the country. It doesn't matter if the Hello Kitty Party is in power there, we don't want Afghanistan to be like it was pre-2001. If anyone didn't already know the Taliban is a pack of smelly illiterate ass****s and the ONLY language they understand is sustained deadly force.
     
  5. mkrishnan Moderator emeritus

    mkrishnan

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2004
    Location:
    Grand Rapids, MI, USA
    #5
    So after ... eight years of our renewed presence there in numbers, there's an election, and the Taliban are cutting people's fingers off because they voted?

    I honestly think that this effort was not only misguided from the outset but that we knew this perfectly well a decade ago. Between the culture, the history, and the geography, this was never a war any army of arbitrarily high sophistication could have hoped to win.

    Do I like the Taliban? No, of course not. But is there any history of unseating a force like them successfully in this way? Even if they were not in a place as inhospitable to a war campaign as Afghanistan?

    I'm not sure how to win here... with Sudan as one of the closer cousins to this situation, is a place where our earnest attempts at diplomacy (which we did not use with the Taliban) are not working, either. But this clearly is not working.
     
  6. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2003
    Location:
    Penryn
    #6
    Send in massive amounts of birth control pills maybe????

    Until Afghanistan can begin to generate enough jobs to employ its young people, there's little hope of any kind of stable civil society.

    Overpopulation is the root of the problem.
     
  7. skunk thread starter macrumors G4

    skunk

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2002
    Location:
    Republic of Ukistan
    #7
    The trouble with your argument is that the Taliban are largely in control, the Hello Kitty Party is not, and apart from a less obvious Al Qaeda presence, the country is very much like it was pre-2001. The place is awash with dirty money, our missions have replaced some of the warlords while reinforcing others, and the people of Afghanistan are left in much the same state as they were in before. Calling the Taliban names is hardly effective, and frankly the difference between the Taliban cutting off fingers and NATO blowing innocent villagers to pieces is notional at best.
     
  8. mkrishnan Moderator emeritus

    mkrishnan

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2004
    Location:
    Grand Rapids, MI, USA
    #8
    Interesting thought, but my counter-argument would be that, in essence, it is a symptom of the larger problem, which is that we (both the East and the West) have tried to impose modern civilized life on a people who aren't ready for it. That in turn lead to overpopulation. Maybe we just need to leave them alone and at least give them an opportunity to evolve a way of living that they find suitable to themselves....
     
  9. miloblithe macrumors 68020

    miloblithe

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2003
    Location:
    Washington, DC
    #9
    Then we should continue to support the public health efforts going on there. Total fertility (children per woman) has dropped from 7.48 in 2000 to 6.91 in 2007. Meanwhile life expectancy has risen from 42 to 44. Measles immunisation rates grew from 35% of children under 1 in 2000 to 64% in 2005.

    http://graphs.gapminder.org/world/#$majorMode=chart$is;shi=t;ly=2003;lb=f;il=t;fs=11;al=30;stl=t;st=t;nsl=t;se=t$wst;tts=C$ts;sp=6;ti=2007$zpv;v=0$inc_x;mmid=XCOORDS;iid=phAwcNAVuyj0TAlJeCEzcGQ;by=ind$inc_y;mmid=YCOORDS;iid=phAwcNAVuyj2tPLxKvvnNPA;by=ind$inc_s;uniValue=8.21;iid=phAwcNAVuyj0XOoBL_n5tAQ;by=ind$inc_c;uniValue=255;gid=CATID0;by=grp$map_x;scale=lin;dataMin=0.842;dataMax=8.7$map_y;scale=lin;dataMin=12;dataMax=83$map_s;sma=49;smi=2.65$cd;bd=0$inds=i1_t001960,,,,

    Excruciatingly slow progress, but some is being made.
     
  10. obeygiant macrumors 68040

    obeygiant

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Location:
    totally cool
    #10
    I don't think educating women and treating them better than you would treat dirt is too much to impose as civilized life. Or appreciating history instead of blowing it up because it doesn't jibe with the laws of Allah. If we could set the way-back machine for the 1700s or 1800s maybe that would work, but I think we're looking at a pandora's box situation here.
     

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