Putin admits his scheming to take over Crimea

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by VulchR, Mar 9, 2015.

  1. VulchR macrumors 68020

    VulchR

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    #1
    See BBC story at this link.

    So, given all the criticism that the US and UK took over WMD and Iraq (an error arising out of incompetence), where is the vehement global denunciation of Putin for scheming to grab land from an adjacent country?

    FWIW - I think Putin had played Crimea wrong. He could have suggested an internationally supervised referendum regarding the Crimea, and if the outcome had been overwhelming Pro-Russian, he could have invoked the principle of self determination. I might have even had sympathy with that, but instead Putin decides to invade another country (and don't give me crap about Crimea belonging to Russia beforethe 1950's, for that was a long time ago).
     
  2. jkcerda macrumors 6502

    jkcerda

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    #2
    don't care, we interfere in plenty of sovereign nations & dictate who their rulers should be blah blah blah.
     
  3. Happybunny macrumors 68000

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    #3
    I have been over this event many times in the past.

    The OP is again trying to make a case for righteous indignation, like in 2003 and Iraq and the US lead invasion.

    The problem was back then the US was still meant to be one of the good guys, in 2014 everybody knows Russia is one of the bad guys. You can only indignation if the country acts like a hypocrite, in this case Russia acted just like the evil empire it was portrayed as.

    The second point is no country in Western mainland Europe is willing to risk an all out nuclear war over the the Krim, or Eastern Ukraine. Sanctions are about as far as they are willing to go.

    As far as I can see the status quo will remain until at least the near future, because nobody is prepared to do anything about it.
     
  4. unlinked macrumors 6502a

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    #4
    Pretty sure no one would have taken suggestions of a referendum that seriously. Not moments after a friendly leader was kicked out in a coup.
     
  5. VulchR thread starter macrumors 68020

    VulchR

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    #5
    I do believe that this annexation is worthy of scorn, ridicule and indignation (albeit not self-righteous). The two points you raised do seem to hit the mark, though. My worry is that now anything Putin does will be viewed as a chain of aggressive actions starting with the Crimea. We'll be back to domino theories in short order I fear. I grew up outside of Washington DC in the 60's/70's. When I first went to school we had duck-and-cover drills, and I'd hate to see that again.
     
  6. Cromulent macrumors 603

    Cromulent

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    #6
    Because, you know, that'll totally save you from a nuclear blast.
     
  7. aaronvan Suspended

    aaronvan

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    #7
    Crimea is Russia.

    That doesn't apply to the rest of Ukraine, though. However, that's Ukraine's worry.
     
  8. jnpy!$4g3cwk macrumors 65816

    jnpy!$4g3cwk

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    #8
    This is old news, though. It was obvious at the time. The question that I, and everyone else has had today, is, why is Putin being explicit about it now?

    The only answer that I have heard on the radio that makes sense, is, that Putin is bragging about it.
     
  9. sim667 macrumors 65816

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    #9
    I think saying it was incompetence is a bit naive, it was maliciously misleading to garner public support for the invasion.

    They should have been tried for war crimes for that, but no. :rolleyes:
     
  10. juanm, Mar 10, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2015

    juanm macrumors 65816

    juanm

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    #10
    Considering Russia's internal struggles, I believe putin knows his only way to stay in power is to escalate tensions again and maintain them that way, in a state of semi-cold war, to polarise people against the West and around him, like Bush after 911:

    [​IMG]
     
  11. VulchR thread starter macrumors 68020

    VulchR

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    #11
    Perhaps, but then again I think most people are naive with respect to the degree of incompetence the intelligence community is capable of. Some would have us believe that the US intelligence community knows everything and is all-powerful, but frankly that's absurd.
     
  12. sim667 macrumors 65816

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    #12
    The chilcott enquiry did find that the information fed to decisions makers was not exactly the same information used to justify action to the public..

    Infact was also found that Blair ordered dossiers to be written up about information that didn't exist.
     
  13. yjchua95 macrumors 604

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    #13
    So why didn't they do anything until recently? Why wait until around last year? Why only do it after Yanukovych was overthrown?
     
  14. VulchR thread starter macrumors 68020

    VulchR

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    #14
    Honestly I wonder whether Blair was acting emotionally to the loss of so many British citizens - more than in any IRA attack - or if he was trying to preserve the alliance between the US and Europe. In any case, I grant that there is evidence of misinformation coming from Blair's government, but there seems to be less evidence of that in the US. Blair made the case that Iraq was about WMD, the US case was more general in portraying Iraq as a threatening enemy in more ways than just terrorism.
     
  15. Technarchy macrumors 603

    Technarchy

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    #15
    Where does it reside in terms of internationally recognized borders?
     
  16. aaronvan Suspended

    aaronvan

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    #16
    Here is the U.S. State Department's map of Ukraine:

    http://www.state.gov/p/eur/ci/up/87013.htm

    Clearly, it needs updating to reflect geopolitical reality.
     
  17. VulchR thread starter macrumors 68020

    VulchR

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    #17
    Geopolitical realities like 1938 Czechoslavakia? *cough*
     
  18. ActionableMango macrumors 604

    ActionableMango

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    #18
    Well, he has Crimea, so I'd say he was successful. And I bet he'll keep it.

    Now he's working on a land connection between Russia and Crimea. And I bet the world will let him keep that too.

    Putin is getting old. He's probably thinking about his legacy in the history books. He will go down in Russian history books as a strong leader that brought back Russia's strength and prestige in the world, faced up to the West, conquered parts of Georgia and Ukraine, and returned Crimea back to Russia. He's getting everything he wants.

    We are certainly not going to war with Russia over this. And the sanctions are a joke. Putin and his Russian elites are living large while the population suffers, but Putin's popularity rating is high because you don't dare say otherwise. If you do, you end up killed in front of the Kremlin.

    The price of oil is recovering faster than Russia's cash reserves are dwindling, and Russia has willing customers all over the world who don't care about Western sanctions. Not to mention Western countries themselves are still buying Russian gas because they made the mistake of dealing with the devil and now they are stuck while scrambling around for alternatives.
     
  19. aaronvan Suspended

    aaronvan

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    #19
    Which reminds me:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8rg9c4pUrg

    Also reminds me of Baghdad Bob: "The Americans are dying by the thousands on the walls of Baghdad."
     
  20. sim667 macrumors 65816

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    In what attack?

    At the end of the day, the UK invaded based on lies, and the US and the UK didn't even declare war before invading.
     
  21. Happybunny macrumors 68000

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    #21
    First off let it go, there are never going to be mass demonstrations against Russia in the streets of Western Europe. First it has no use because Russia is not swayed by Western public opinion. There was a small chance that the anti war demonstrations back in 2003, "Not in My Name" could have had some affect, on the lapdog that was Blair.

    As to mentioning the IRA, please remember the IRA enjoyed widespread support in the USA through NORAID.
    The American public didn’t care that they were in the 70’s & 80’s murdering UK citizens.


    The point that you totally miss, is that the vaste majority of the population of the Krim are Russian, so long as these people are fine with the status quo nothing is going to change.

    Back to topic don’t forget Ukraine.
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/12/imf-announces-175bn-loan-for-ukraine

    Once the shooting stops the cold hard drag of everyday reality will take over.:(

    Just ask Greece how life is once the IMF takes over the running of your economy.:cool:
     
  22. VulchR, Mar 12, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2015

    VulchR thread starter macrumors 68020

    VulchR

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    #22
    9/11: 67 British nationals died, more than any other country than the US, and far more than any single attack arising form Northern Ireland disputes (29 from the Omagh bombing).

    Absolutely classic statement of reification. A person in the Crimea would have to have been before 1954 to remember what it is like to be Russian (well, Soviet - they'd have to have been born before 1921 to remember being Russian).
     
  23. Happybunny macrumors 68000

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    #23
    Not at all the majority speak Russian and not Ukrainian.
     
  24. VulchR thread starter macrumors 68020

    VulchR

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    #24
    So speaking Russian = wanting to be ruled by Putin? Do you not see how absurd that assertion is? Oh wait, where have I heard that type of argument before? 1930's history I think.

    Like I said, it would have been one thing if an internationally supervised referendum had confirmed that it was the wil of the people of Crimea to join Russia, but it's quite another that the decision of a single man - Putin - determined their fate.

    Also, I wonder when Russia is going to compensate the non-Russian speaking refugees who fled in fear of their lives.
     
  25. Happybunny macrumors 68000

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    #25
    I again say to you, there is no way the west is going to have righteous indignation.


    Ukraine is already fading from the headlines.

    IMHO the US would be far better served if it would put it's own house in order, Ferguson for example, than starting yet another foreign war.
     

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