RCP: The Gun Debate - What Liberals Leave Out

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by ugahairydawgs, Apr 4, 2013.

  1. ugahairydawgs macrumors 68020

    ugahairydawgs

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  2. mcrain macrumors 68000

    mcrain

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    #2
    I would think that if we all agree that there are all sorts of causes for gun violence, including poverty, the breakdown of the family, and mental illness, among many others, that we would all agree that we should find ways of reducing gun violence from the gun side. I mean, how can government fix poverty if there is a massive group of people who don't want to spend any money on the poor? How can the government fix the breakdown of the family when there is a massive group of people who don't even want to recognize certain families and yet allow divorces? How can we fix mental illness issues when that same group of people refuses to fund the necessary medical care that people need and refuse to allow background checks that might prevent the mentally ill from getting guns?

    How?
     
  3. VulchR macrumors 68020

    VulchR

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    #3
    My thoughts? This article stands to evidence-based reasoning as military music stands to music: it's utter twaddle. This thread will not go well....
     
  4. miloblithe macrumors 68020

    miloblithe

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    #4
    Here are the top six states by age-adjusted firearms death rates (2010 data)

    1 Alaska 20.4
    2 Louisiana 19.2
    3 Alabama 16.2
    4 Mississippi 16.1
    5 Wyoming 15.6
    6 Montana 15.4

    http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/states/FIREARMS_STATE_2010.pdf

    Here is a list of U.S. states by the percentage of their population that is black:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_African-American_population

    While Mississippi, Louisiana, and Alabama are #1, #2, and #6 in terms of black population, Alaska, Wyoming, and Montana are #34, #42, and #50.

    Trying to pretend that gun violence is more or less exclusively the domain of blacks raised by single mothers on welfare isn't going to get you very far in a fact-based argument. But, it is going to get you very far among a certain crowd who want to blame all of society's problems on this or that minority.
     
  5. ugahairydawgs thread starter macrumors 68020

    ugahairydawgs

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    #5
    Slight problem with your jump to racism....

    This is Larry Elder, the author of the article

    [​IMG]
     
  6. Peterkro macrumors 68020

    Peterkro

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    #6
    I thought the Revolutionary Communist Party disbanded years ago?
     
  7. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #7
    What does his skin color have to do with the content of is article?
     
  8. miloblithe macrumors 68020

    miloblithe

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    #8
    How is that a problem? Who is the article's audience?

    Another problem with his analysis: The boom in black people not getting married started in the 1980s. In 1980, about 10% of black men aged 35 and older had never been married, close to the average value seen from 1890 to 1980 (It's now over 25%). The percentage of black women 35 and older never married had been tracking up since 1950, but still had only reached about 9% by 1980, much less than where we are now (over 25%).

    http://www.census.gov/hhes/socdemo/marriage/data/acs/ElliottetalPAA2012presentation.pdf

    Now, the problem is, Elder's analysis is that welfare in the 1960s caused black families to break down, which caused a crime surge because black kids weren't raised by fathers. The problem is, welfare expansion began in the 1960s, black marriage rates didn't fall significantly until the 1980s, meaning children raised by a disproportionate number of single black mothers wouldn't have been born until the 1980s and later. So by Elder's argument, we'd expect to see a crime wave when those children grow up (say late 1990s until today).

    What do we see in the crime statistics? The homicide rate increases from a relative low of about 4.5 per 100,000 in the 50s and early 60s to values mostly above 9.0 and higher from 1971 to 1994 (except 1983 to 1987 when it dropped below 9 three out of four years). Then homicide rates dropped dramatically in the mid 1990s to 2000s, just when this wave of black kids born to single mothers should have been out there (according to Elder) doing more killing.

    http://web.archive.org/web/20061024231800/http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/tables/hmrttab.htm
     
  9. eric/ Guest

    eric/

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    #9
    Well it is a fact. The issue here is that you think that trying to fix the black communities problems means that you're blaming societies problems on the minority:

    And it's not because white people are somehow less violent or something, it's because the black family unit has disintegrated, and it's because of a disgusting culture which promotes gangs, violence, cars, money, and women to young black men that don't have a father figure in their life. So they seek to fill that void. It's black on black crime. That's the issue!

    It's also worth noting that the drug war has disproportionately affected young black men as well. Of course the entire drug war is turning the US into a prison society where we have the highest incarceration rate in the world, we have repeat felons, and all the while decreases in overall violent crime.

    So what are people locked up for? Drugs.
     
  10. miloblithe macrumors 68020

    miloblithe

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    #10
    I agree with your second point, but I have serious doubts about the first. Black people commit crimes at a higher rate (or are convicted at a higher rate if you prefer). That's true. But saying the cause (as if there was one cause) of this reality is that black people don't get married often enough is a dubious assertion to me. I think the problems are far more complex than that, and the marriage assertion confuses correlation and causation. I think it's far more likely the drop in marriages is a result of a broad range of other issues, not the cause of all other issues.
     
  11. ugahairydawgs thread starter macrumors 68020

    ugahairydawgs

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    #11
    RCP is not a partisan site.

    ----------

    The implication that the article is for or against one side and that in doing so it is inherently racist.
     
  12. eric/ Guest

    eric/

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    #12
    Well there is undeniable evidence that single parent homes lead to all sorts of problem children regardless of race. The actual causes for why black children are being raised in this way are debatable for sure, but the evidence is there.

    There could also be various reasons for drop in homicide rates not necessarily related to the single parent home. I can't actually look at your stats because the site is blocked at work. But even if they did drop in the time period you specified, they are still markedly higher than in the 50s-60s. And that still doesn't account for the disproportionate likelihood of black men being the victim or instigator of violence as I pointed out above. Unless there is something going on (such as the single family issue), why wouldn't the rates be similar to white people?
     
  13. miloblithe macrumors 68020

    miloblithe

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    #13
  14. Technarchy macrumors 604

    Technarchy

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    #14
    Nope. Not even close.
     
  15. ugahairydawgs thread starter macrumors 68020

    ugahairydawgs

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    #15
    Get off wikipedia for a minute and go pull up the actual website. You get a steady dose of both sides of the political spectrum.
     
  16. miloblithe macrumors 68020

    miloblithe

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    #16
    McIntyre and Bevan are the website's creators:

    The site strives for balance, but has a conservative bias, especially in commentary. Is the idea of bias hard to admit?

    Further, according to RCP, Elder originally wrote the piece for Townhall. Is that not a conservative site?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Townhall
     
  17. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #17
    I only read enough of the article to see at least part of it dealt with the impact of being raised without a father.

    The bottom line is that you can't or shouldn't try to legislate human relationships. You might try incentivizing behavior, but you can't force people to stay together or even choose their partner well.

    All you can really hope for is that people make wiser choices ... and there ain't no sign of that happening anytime soon.
     
  18. ugahairydawgs thread starter macrumors 68020

    ugahairydawgs

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    #18
    You should go back and read the rest when you get a chance. The author was not making a case for legislating human relationships at all. Its more talking about the relationship between crime and fatherless families and the potential origins.
     
  19. vrDrew macrumors 65816

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    #19
    Let me just summarize the gist of the cited article:

    From purely logical standpoint, the entire argument is fallacious. The two issues are unrelated. And since the Equal Protection clause of the Fourteenth Amendment prohibits discriminating against any class of citizens, there is no way the two issues can be connected.

    We may argue ad nauseum as to precisely why some segments of our population suffer disproportionately from violent crime. But I'd suggest we deal first with issues such as failing education systems, the lack of decent employment opportunities, and the prevalance of drugs among those populations.

    But regardless of whether black-on-black violence is the result of gangs, drugs, fluoride in the drinking water, rap music, or baggy pants - it still means we need to keep semi-automatic assault rifles out of the hands of young caucasian whackjobs like Adam Lanza; James Holmes; Eric Harris, Dylan Klebold, and Wade Michael Page.
     
  20. eric/ Guest

    eric/

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    #20
    Speaking of fallacious arguments.

    Those are whys. That's what we're talking about here.

    Well, we want to get to the source of the problem don't we? And specific things like rap music or baggy pants are bad by themselves, what's bad is the message.
     
  21. hulugu macrumors 68000

    hulugu

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    #21
    The article is a mess.

    Nearly any article that begins with a construction like "As I wrote in my book..." should be immediately considered untrustworthy. Authors will often try build connections between two different subject, but because they've just written a book (or are still on the book circuit) they tend to be lazy about their thinking.

    The author has failed to illustrate a connection between violence (gun violence) and single-parent households and the author did not connect the relationships between the welfare reform, the War on Poverty, and violence.

    If the author is correct then we should see violence rise or fall by the number or percentage of single parent households. From 1980 to 2008, the number of single parent households went from 18.4 percent to 40.6 percent. We should expect to see some relationship between that number and violence, but we don't.

    And, an interesting wrinkle, what's the relationship when kids are raised without mothers to violence or other negative effects? That should help prove or disprove the thesis that fathers are important.
     
  22. LIVEFRMNYC macrumors 603

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    #22
    Exactly ...... That article was pure dribble to the point that there's nothing even solid to argue about.



    Oh no ...... Not a black person against blacks ....... I never witnessed that before. :eek:

    And how many times was he on FOX?
     
  23. Shrink macrumors G3

    Shrink

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    #23
    Gracious...pulling out the old "it's the Commies" boogeymen?

    Welcome to the past...
     
  24. Peterkro macrumors 68020

    Peterkro

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    #24
    It was actually a comment on the chauvinism of some posters who put up acronyms about obscure U.S. organisations and expect those in the rest of the world to know what the bleeding hell they are on about.
     
  25. Peace macrumors Core

    Peace

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    #25
    Why are people talking about black people when the last three mass murders were done by a white person.
     

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