Republicans, astroturf, and "Town Halls Gone Wild"

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Thomas Veil, Aug 5, 2009.

  1. Thomas Veil macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

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    #1
    Just how low will the Republicans go?

    I am beyond words. How can any self-respecting Republican embrace a tactic which inherently has to resort to lies and trickery instead of facts and thoughtful debate? These people have no morals and no shame. They are content to let people continue to suffer and pay through the roof in order to support their contributors in the health insurance industry.

    FreedomWorks is, BTW, run by Dick Armey, whom you will recall was one of the slimiest of the bunch of Republicans we're run out of town in recent years.

    I am left wondering what is the best way to handle this situation.

    Since the obvious intention is to create the illusion of this great "groundswell" of opposition to health care reform, the one obvious solution would be to not hold town halls. There are other ways to ask your representative questions, and we are all using one of them right now as you read this.

    I've also heard someone propose that Democrats "shame" the Republicans by bringing along real-life people who've been treated badly under the current health care system, and let them tell their stories. But I'd hate for these wackos to start shouting, "Liar!" and "Phony!" at average citizens. To me, that doesn't seem the way to go.

    Anybody got any other ideas?
     
  2. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #2
    I don't get how everyone who disagrees or is pissed off at the government gets lumped into a "manufactured" mob category. People have been bitching since the bailouts started, they weren't listened to, people are bound to get pissed off after being ignored.

    If you don't believe Americans are pissed at our government you are delusional. That memo could be just as manufactured as the mobs are supposed to be. I don't believe the tea parties were manufactured either, in fact I know a few people personally on other boards who attended them who aren't part of any groups.

    I don't agree with shouting, but after you've written your congressmen for so long with no response I can understand how someone would dive at the chance to bitch someone out.
     
  3. ucfgrad93 macrumors P6

    ucfgrad93

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    #3
    Love how when conservative speakers like Ann Coulter and others get shouted down, there is no complaints.
     
  4. spaceboots06 macrumors 6502a

    spaceboots06

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    #4
    I'd feel humiliated if a politician made a spectacle out of me and dragged me around the city with him to prove his point. It's not like everyone is short changed by America's medical system. Actually, a lot of people don't have a problem with the current system.

    I can't remember the details exactly but my friend's mother needed to have one of her breasts removed and couldn't afford it. She eventually got it, but my friend had to take out a loan and pay for the last year of college himself. I'd say a fair number of people complaining that they can't afford treatment could find a way to cover the costs if they adjusted their budget slightly.
     
  5. Thomas Veil thread starter macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

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    #5
    If people were as pissed off as you say they are, Bush woulda been guillotined 'long about his third year in office.

    No. There are of course some individuals who are attracted to these events, but these things start in the offices of conservative politicians and lobbyists.

    And I wouldn't talk about other people being delusional and believing the tea parties were real in the same paragraph.

    As far as responses, I don't think it's that people get no response. I just think radicals get pissed off because it's not the response they want.

    I doubt the Dems bus people in to yell at her and disrupt meetings.
     
  6. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #6
    Didn't the dems have some sort of bus patrol around AIG exec housing not so long ago? I know they have been accused of a few union organized rallies and rogue protesters with racist signs.

    The tea parties had real people at them, I knew a few personally as I already explained. If you know anyone personally who manufactured them or went only because they were paid/whatever other conspiracy theory you want to come up with let me know.

    You sound about as much as a nut ball as any crazy right winger dismissing the anger of the American people. People weren't pissed under Bush because the **** hadn't snowballed until sometime after 2006.
     
  7. Kashchei macrumors 65816

    Kashchei

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    #7
    I have no doubt that conservatives around the country are angry at the current government. I can only say that perhaps the experience of being defeated at the polls last November will teach you empathy for how liberals felt for the previous 8 years. Conservatives don't seem to be able to suffer political defeats with any semblance of stoicism, unfortunately.
     
  8. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #8
    Dems were crying about Bush the moment he was elected. Both times. :confused:

    If you are happy with your government at this point I don't know what to say. For any reasonable person it hasn't just been the previous 8 years, its been 8 years and 6+ months that we have been wondering what the **** is going on.
     
  9. Thomas Veil thread starter macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

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    #9
    The article in my initial post has plenty of links to links to links that explain the manufacturing process.

    Argue the Bush-public anger timeline all you want; if you are trying to tell me that people are angrier about getting health care than they were about sending our boys to die in a war based on a lie, well, that's just too far-fetched for me to believe.
     
  10. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #10
    I can give you links to links to links that show Obama was born in some non-US land, it doesn't make it true.

    People aren't angry about getting health care, they are worried about government taking over and plowing another part of their life into the ground. I am glad you trust your government to take care of you, I personally do not.

    Being as the government was the catalyst to this current mess we are in today economically I really don't feel like laying another baby in their hands just yet.
     
  11. Kashchei macrumors 65816

    Kashchei

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    #11

    You cannot compare democrats "crying" about Bush after both elections with the mob rule mentality currently on display by conservative agitators. If you continue with this comparison, you will be making the conscious decision to be intellectually dishonest and there will be no point in continuing the debate.
     
  12. thegoldenmackid macrumors 604

    thegoldenmackid

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  13. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #13
    If the congressman truly feel that conservative agitators are the only people who have a problem with them then they will be fine come election time so there isn't really anything to discuss anyways.
     
  14. OutThere macrumors 603

    OutThere

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    #14
    Disgusting. Childish responses because their real responses are full of fail.
     
  15. Kashchei macrumors 65816

    Kashchei

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    #15
    We are both in complete agreement on this point
     
  16. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #16


    What "People"? The misinformed?
     
  17. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #17
    There is no misinformation, the housing crisis was propelled by government intervention, social security is in the trash along with medicare and medicaid. Why anyone would trust our government with another blanket program whose catalyst would be the public option is beyond me.
     
  18. LizKat macrumors 68030

    LizKat

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    #18
    Well there's anger and then there's anger.

    People got angry (and got really, really tired) of how the Republicans behaved for 8 years. Gutting agency budgets and then harping about how useless the agencies were. Talking about conservative values and then blowing the biggest surplus in history on upper class tax breaks during an unbudgeted war. Needlessly antagonizing allies and other countries alike by taking a belligerent "my way or the highway" public tone. Were we angry about health care too? Sure. Short of the lame Part D drugs thing with the "donut hole" absurdity, it's not like anything constructive got done about it while the GOP ran the table.

    So we shifted gears and put the other party in there. What the heck, it's called having an election and changing the guard. There are some people acting as if that didn't happen, or shouldn't have happened. They need to get over it! Next opportunity is only seven years away :)

    So now come the changes. If we don't reform health care, then the costs will bury us. Both parties said they understood this.

    So who is now saying that health care reform is about the "government taking over and plowing another part of your life into the ground," anyway? A bunch of talk radio and TV show hosts? Empty suits like McConnell and Boehner? Does anyone still buy their brand of sodapop? They have been on autopilot for 8 years and apparently don't realize their party crash landed last fall.

    People are said to fear that reform will lead to single payer. I say two things, one if it did, so what? and two, it won't do that, but the pressure to reform will make the insurers, drug companies and hospitals see the light, search out where the fat is, sit down at table and deal. Which is what has been going on lately.

    Yeah, it's noisy. But the train is leaving the station this year, so they know they have to get on with the negotiations and get aboard. Maybe the fat is in the stock dividends. Maybe it's in the CEO pay. The drug companies can hardly argue that changes will harm their R&D effort, since they have been cutting back on that for years by buying each other up anyway. They're going to wake up some morning and realize that new pharm is rolling out of someplace like Brazil or Jordan or Turkey. This is what happens when you stare at the stock tickers too long. Somebody else actually sits down at the bench and builds something new and takes it to market with a price the traffic will bear.

    The congresscritters realize enough people are steamed over the disgraceful state of our health care system that they have to act on it or end up out of a job. My bet is they will act on it. Might not be perfect but it will be a start, maybe towards something more like the French have, where there's a mix of public and private care options.

    OOOOoooh, I said something bad, I said "like the French." OOOOooooooh. See that's the stuff we have to get past. Shutting our ears when we hear the thing our parties stereotypically tell us is terrible. We have to be able to talk with each other, and leave off the labels and FUD-purveying.

    So let's ask, if the French health care approach were so terrible then why would the French keep it? Apparently it works pretty well for them, so why not see if there are parts of their system of a public-private mix that could serve us well too. We don't have to reinvent the wheel. We do have to stop thinking what we have is fine. It's not fine, and it costs too much, and serves too few. It's unsustainable. That mess, and not the reform that both parties are trying to accomplish, is what could drive us into the ground.
     
  19. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #19
    With a public option included we wouldn't be trying a public-private mix because the government wants to dictate terms to the insurance companies. Terms that put them out of business. Suddenly the only company that can stay upright is the one with the tax payers/china/printing press backing it.

    No one said anything about no reform for health care, most just don't want another government constructed disaster.
     
  20. NT1440 macrumors G4

    NT1440

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    #20
    So having competitive prices in their plan is now "dictating to the insurance companies"? If they can't compete , good riddance.
     
  21. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #21
    If the government tells the insurance company how to run their business then it is dictating terms. If you open an ice cream stand and start selling with a profit and then I open one with a government backing and am able to dictate that you sell ice cream at a loss you are going to be packing up your ice cream stand fairly quickly. I will just spread my losses over the masses and be the only ice cream stand in town. I get to choose whether you eat chocolate on monday or vanilla.
     
  22. OutThere macrumors 603

    OutThere

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    #22
    Bad example...the more expensive ice cream will live on as there will always be people who prefer the premium option (Macs, BMWs, private school). Indeed the non-government-backed ice cream store will suddenly face pressure to innovate, reduce costs and attract more buyers. It's not like there really are any of those pressures in the health insurance market today.
     
  23. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #23
    I don't care about the government competing as long as they don't dictate terms. Your premium options are going to be destroyed by terms created by the government, it would be similar to forcing you to uphold warranties for all customers who break their macs on purpose (not a direct parallel to the uninsurable, but it has the same end result, your company gets screwed).
     
  24. Thomas Veil thread starter macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

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    #24
    The purpose of this sabotage is to give the illusion that there is a groundswell of protest and plant doubts in people's minds, doubts based on fear, not facts. It's not just about a few nuts.

    The housing crisis was propelled in large part by government deregulation. The repeal of Glass-Steagall was a part of it, but the conservatives' fascination with deregulation allowed the banking and investment industries to get away with all sorts of cockamamie schemes.

    Nobody wants to talk about this, but Social Security could be fixed in thirty seconds by removing the $90,000 cap. Done.

    Well, the example you give has been disproven over and over. I've yet to see anyone disprove the charges that this is an organized Republican effort. Deny, yes; disprove, no.

    And what are we getting now, with corporate-run health care?

    I don't know...you think people are angrier about government "taking over" than the fact that they're going bankrupt from getting sick and having no health care?? I could see where people who are insulated in the little world of talk radio might think that, but in the everyday world, the people who worry about health care seem to outnumber the conspiracy theorists by a wide margin.
     
  25. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #25
    The housing crisis was propelled by one thing: government guaranteed backing of house loans to stimulate the housing market/economy. Without this no one would have taken the obscene risks they did. In the crazy past you might have actually had to be credit worthy and have a down payment to get a house, what a weird concept. House prices might have actually been reasonable back then before anyone and their dog could get a no money down loan though.

    Social security cannot and should not be fixed, it is a flawed system to start with. Even worse when the government borrows/spends the money on things other than what it was intended for.

    Going bankrupt from getting sick happens in a very very small minority of cases or it wouldn't be reported in the news, keep that in mind. I am uninsured also, I have never thought of myself as deprived because of it.
     

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