Republicans stall energy bill

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Thomas Veil, Jun 16, 2007.

  1. Thomas Veil macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

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    #1
    CNN

    Typical Republicans. Gotta protect the oil, auto and nuke industries.

    The Dems are doing the right thing, though arguably they should be even bolder in their efforts. Still, with this...

    ...becoming an increasingly familiar phrase, what really seems clear is that this Congress may get little if anything accomplished, thanks to all the obstructionism on the GOP side.

    BTW -- see y'all later. My last child, my daughter, is getting married today.
     
  2. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #2
    Nero fiddling while Rome is burning....


    Congratulations on your daughter's wedding!
     
  3. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #3
    awesome! congrats!
     
  4. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #4
    Sadly, that's pretty much a given lately. Lots of talk, then they don't have enough votes, so they do nothing. They should be all over the news talking about this, and other things like it.

    Congrats on the other stuff though.
     
  5. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #5
    I'm against "requiring" some percentage of generation to be done. Many of the companies are already building wind-farms and doing solar stuff. I'm in accord with the pro-nuke faction, as well. More nukes, replacements as coal-fired plants reach the end of the use-cycle.

    I think they're taking the wrong tack on vehicle fuel economy, also. There's gotta be a better way to get folks out of vehicles that are much larger than what's needed, and into the fuel-efficient stuff that's already available. Weight-penalty taxes on bargemobiles? Tax incentives for over-40mpg cars?

    SFAIK, it's still a 100% write-off for personal vehicles with a GVW of 6,500 pounds or more, which is an incentive for businesses to buy $40K-and-up one-ton 4DR 4WD monster pickups, Suburbans, Hummers. But you can only write off $13,000 of a reasonably fuel-efficient "luxury" car. Right now, Congress is still rewarding folks for buying gas hogs.

    'Rat
     
  6. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #6
    My god, what happened to the right's zeal for the upperdownvote? A year ago they were practically predicting the collapse of the Republic because of the intransigence of the "obstructionist Democrats". It was an article of faith on righty talk radio and the WH spokesliar that Democrats were badnastyevil folks for stalling legislative items they didn't agree with.

    While of course the same talking heads are claiming today that it is a sign of charachtor and of principle that members of Congress obstruct things they do not agree with.

    And the wheel of right-wing hypocrisy turns...
     
  7. Turkish macrumors 6502

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    #7
    Ditto.
     
  8. Thomas Veil thread starter macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

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    Thanks for the congratulations on my daughter's wedding. It was beautiful and perfect, and I have another little hole in my life now. :eek:

    All I can say about "required" fuel efficiency is that when the government forced auto makers to adhere to increasingly higher CAFE standards, we got higher MPG cars; as soon as they made it voluntary, the industry slacked off.

    And the whole idea wasn't only to get people into smaller cars; it was to spur the auto makers into developing better technology even for larger cars. Nobody cares if your car is small or large if it gets 40 MPG.

    Same applies to requirements for alternative energy creation. Nobody'll get serious about it until and unless they are forced to.

    The problem with nukes is obvious; it'll never become practical until someone invents true fusion power.
     
  9. FFTT macrumors 68030

    FFTT

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    #9
    I sold Datsuns back in 77-79 and while they weren't perfect, they were extremely reliable, fast and economical.

    Back then I thought the U.S. manufacturers would catch on and beat Japan
    at it's own game. They've had more than 30 years and their business model
    never seemed to change.

    As far as I'm concerned, U.S manufacturers are out of excuses.
    They have the technology locked up in their vaults along with thousands of
    alternative energy patents sealed away " for reasons of national security"
    at the US PTO.

    The only thing stopping them is greed.
     
  10. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #11
    Folks were squalling for fuel-efficient cars to buy before anybody thought of requiring a CAFE. When gas prices started rising, lotsa folks went toward the more efficient cars.

    Car makers sell the little stuff at near-break-even; the main profit is on full-size stuff and SUVs. $15K profit on such as the Expedition or even more on an Escalade. Which is why I've equated them with cocaine: God's way of telling you that you have too much money.

    Datsuns improved a lot by the 1970s. Before then, the last thing you ever wanted to do was let one run hot. Warped cylinder heads. Honda probably had the best precision-built motors of all, from what I saw inside them. TLOK how many small-car engines I rebuilt, back in the '60s/'70s; over a hundred, anyway.

    It would be nice to have Gone Fusion, but a whole bunch of billions of R&D dollars have yet to produce. Lotsa folks have Gone Fission. The U.S. has the least percentage of its electricity from nukes of the other developed countries, SFAIK. We invent stuff; other countries then use it while we legislate or emote our way to Tail End Charlie status.

    'Rat
     
  11. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #12
    i don't see that as an argument against CAFE. though i would be in favor of the price of gas reflecting what it actually costs us to have. once M.E. wars, environmental and health damage, costs of creating/maintaining exurbs/highways/etc were taken into account, what would the cost per gallon be?

    ten dollars? $20? $50?

    in such a case, you're right, we wouldn't really need to legislate higher mileage vehicles.
     
  12. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #13
    Is it anyone else's fault but their own if an automaker prices their products stupidly?

    How is the low profit margin on small cars an argument against increased CAFE standards?
     
  13. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #14
    Early forced retirement to keep the shareholders happy, life long insurance to keep the workers happy, skyrocketing health care costs that means it's cheaper to build a car in high wage Germany than it is in low wage USA.

    Part of the problem is Detroit's part belongs to those who believe a public health care system is the death of the USA. Whatever the case, don't expect to see Detroit remain a viable source of cars for much longer.
     
  14. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #15
    I'm not arguing against the CAFE; I'm just saying I believe it's not the only causative factor in cars getting higher gas mileage.

    mac, from what I've read about the pricing, the factors Ugg mentioned make it difficult to compete, pricewise, with a lot of the imports of equal mileage. So, if the public can be suckered into the high-profit stuff, GM/Ford/Chiseler can keep the doors open.

    Again, I'm not arguing against CAFE. I'm just pointing out what is happening "out there". Human nature commonly defeats legislative intent.

    'Rat
     
  15. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #16
    Interesting how info starts coming out about "real reasons". As is commonplace, the Christian Science Monitor has a more objective look at what's going on:

    http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0620/p01s04-uspo.html

    But even in the CSM, it's not until Page 3 that you find one of the real idiocies of the proposed law:

    "In addition, the penalty for those found guilty might be up to 10 years in prison under the new laws, pointed out Commissioner Kovacic. That tough stricture, plus the law's vague language, might result in oil firms shutting down supplies in an emergency – lest they be charged with profiteering if prices spiked for normal economic reasons."

    This is the sort of deal of, "We'll protect your gasoline supplies; you won't have any, and therefore you won't be gouged."

    Even AP gets into the act:

    http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8PS33180&show_article=1

    "The measure would extend and increase taxes paid under an oil spill liability law and eliminate existing tax credits involving foreign oil production. In all, the tax changes were expected to cost the industry more than $15 billion over a decade.

    Another measure, pushed by Sen. Jeff Bingaman, D-N.M., was aimed at collected $10.7 billion in royalties the government has been unable to collect because of flawed oil leasing contracts issued by the Interior Department in 1998-99."

    When you add to the cost of doing business of any company, the company either goes broke or it raises its prices.

    From the Energy Information Agency, via World Net Daily:

    "So, while many tend to assume major gas companies are hugely profiting when gas prices peak, this may not be the case. According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration, when the average price of regular unleaded gas peaked at $3 per gallon in 2006, most major companies were profiting only about 10 cents per gallon on refining and marketing options, while the federal tax alone is as much as 18.4 cents per gallon.

    As of March, the national average gasoline tax is 45.8 cents. New York has the highest gas tax at 60.8 cents at the pump, with Hawaii just behind costing 60.2 cents per gallon, according to the American Petroleum Institute.

    Gas taxes include federal, averaging 18.4 cents per gallon; state, averaging 18.2 cents per gallon; and additional taxes costing an average of 9.15 cents per gallon. The additional taxes include applicable sales taxes, gross receipts taxes, oil inspection fees, underground storage tank fees and other environmental fees."

    IOW, God save me from Congress. The ancient truism still holds: "No man's property is safe while the legislature is in session."

    The betting pool is open: On what date will you be paying $6 per gallon?

    'Rat
     
  16. nbs2 macrumors 68030

    nbs2

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    #17
    My thoughts exactly. I don't we see why we want to force automakers to adapt to a changing reality. Where is the faith in the public to vote with its needs? If, between the inability to produce what people want and need and the high cost of union concessions, this is the death knell for Detroit, so be it.

    I side with you here. The benefits of using nuclear insted of coal/oil are too high to ignore. Installing nuclear doesn't even have to be a permanent solution - if that time is used to find a way to make wind/solar more efficient, all the better. Efficiency is essential if we are to produce enough power for the country's wants/needs. But right now, with their inefficiencies, we would be trading a relatively small quantity of stored waste for acres of windmills - whatever happened to preserving America's beauty?

    What happened to the left's zeal to debate and understand before the vote? A year ago they were practically predicting the collapse of the Republic because of the intransigenc of the "toetheWHline Republicans". It was an article of faith on lefty talk radio and the DNC spokesscreamer that Republicans were badnastyevil folks for rushing to approve legislative items they wanted to pass.

    I give up - this is taking too long.

    Politics goes both ways, both sides are quickly being shown to be hypocritical. Is it any surprise that nobody cares about the welfare of our politicians?
     
  17. ghall macrumors 68040

    ghall

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    #18
    What I don't get is why anybody would see this as a bad thing. What good is billions of dollars if there is no people left on Earth?

    People are really greedy, and even more stupid.
     
  18. atszyman macrumors 68020

    atszyman

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    #19
    Beauty is subjective. I find the wind farms to be kind of zen-like and very serene. I could stand having hundreds of acres of them in my back yard and would probably spend long periods of time out back staring at them, lost in my own thoughts....
     
  19. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #20
    Have they had this bill in hand for more than 24 hours? Are votes being held open for hours while arms are twisted and the futures of Congressional progeny threatened? 'Nuff said.

    I don't blame you. False analgies are hard work -- kind of like being pretzledent. And of course I never suggested that the Democrats are pure in the hypocrisy department. You took that one and ran with it all on your own. Are the Democrats hypocrites when it comes to ethics? Sure, and I've said so in another thread. Are they weasals when it comes to ending the war like they said? Affirmative as well. But those are seperate topics

    Not hardly. I am just vastly amused by the way the GOP behaves. First perjury was The Worst Crime Ever, then it was no big deal. Then the upperdown vote was sacrosanct and anyone who came out against it was an obstructionist -- no matter how long the bill had been available to read, nor how odius the nominee before Congress was. Remember, the GOP was so upset by the possibility of a Democratic fillibuster that they came very close to eliminating the fillibuster. Now of course, the GOP will fillibuster anything they disagree with and call it a principled stand. In the previous Congress, the GOP ruled with an iron fist, yet when this Congress started they complained about the tactics they themselves pioneered being used against them by the new majority.

    And the wheel keeps turning...
     
  20. Roger1 macrumors 65816

    Roger1

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    #21
    I've never been near one. However, in the June/July edition of Mother Earth News, a reader wrote in complaining about the wind farm that was erected on the ridgeline behind her house. She said they were so loud, it sounded like a freight train, 24/7.
     
  21. Thomas Veil thread starter macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

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    #22
    Senate passes pro-renewables energy bill

    Well, we got mixed results. The Senate favored higher auto MPG standards, but we lost the requirement to get 15% of our electricity from renewable sources.

    Yahoo News

    I especially like the indignity contained within this paragraph:

    Um...yeah?!?!? The point is to use less and promote alternatives, not to line the pockets of your favorite industries, jackasses.
     
  22. Swarmlord macrumors 6502a

    Swarmlord

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    #23
    Greed? How about the insatiable demand by their customer base for Escalades and full sized pickups? Look up the number of full sized GM, Ford and Chrysler trucks compared to the smaller foreign ones.

    American manufacturers are just making a lot of the vehicles that are moving the fastest off their lots. I just don't believe that if they knew they could sell 1 million small to midsized cars that get 40-60 mpg that they would refuse which would be the only scenario that would support your theory.

    Heck, just when some diesels started emerging in the Liberty Jeep line, the emission rules were jacked up to the point where all manufacturers pulled their product until they could mee the standards.

    Don't equate making a profit for the shareholders of a company with greed. It's not the same thing.
     
  23. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #24
    Then why is Toyota consistently outselling The Big Three? Why isn't Honda floating in and out of bankruptcy?
     

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