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Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Blue Velvet, Jun 20, 2008.
This is not free speech. This is indefensible hate-mongering and incitement to murder.
people are always going to push the envelope. There is no getting around it in this world.
I dare say that I'd be able to hold my temper if I saw someone wearing a top like that. I'd have two options:
1) Walk away and say nothing.
2) Smash they guy wearing it square in the face.
It would take everything I had to control myself and choose option one.
Early days yet, it is probably going to get much worse.
What a world we live in
This is a disappointing portrait of America, BV. I am ashamed to admit, we still have these fringe hate groups, sharin oxegon with the rest of us.
Some fringes are bigger than others.
They're T-shirts. You should direct your anger towards those who would wear them, if you really think it's worth it.
What about those who made them?
You have a point...
Those are disgusting. Unfortunately, I'm sure we're gonna see a lot more of that before November. And beyond.
As someone who produces political t-shirt designs myself, I have to be careful. There's a big difference between a sentiment that's "in your face" and one that's outright offensive to the general population (and one racial group in particular). So I can't even imagine who these racists think their market would be. Who'd wear those t-shirts in public??
Blue Velvet, it looks to my eye like those came from one of those custom t-shirt services like Cafepress. May I suggest that you complain to the site? Those could very well violate the terms of service.
Some kind of link to the original pictures perhaps?
It's a sad world we live in indeed. It makes me cry to see people acting this way towards others. If only these bigots could direct their energy to something more productive like helping those in need, the world would be a better place.
Anyone who wears one should be ashamed of themselves, but thats not likely to happen
sad sad sad
It is free speech.
You could be wearing a t-shirt right now that someone out there considers "revolting"...
Down with censorship...
Since there was no link we have no idea where they're from. Could be they're not intended to be worn at all. Some kind of Ricky Gervais style humour, perhaps. Best keep the mob indignation on hold till we know the facts.
I have a feeling BV deliberately left out such a link in order not to give these bozos any publicity.
But if you look at the shirts, they all look identical, even each crease and wrinkle, except for the designs. That's how Cafepress depicts shirts on their site: with a boilerplate picture of a shirt, overlaid with the image of the viewer's choice.
Doesn't look like a Cafepress shirt, though. I checked BV's images against some of CP's stuff, and the shirts themselves (not the designs) look similar but not identical. So it's probably one of the other custom-T services. Same deal, though; they all have TOS, and this likely violates them.
You're right. But something tells me this kind of speech comes with a price- and I don't mean money.
There's a price with everything.
Also, remember it's that time of year again - lots and lots of political stuff and satire - enough to make both sides angry....
I am 100% anti-censorship also, but legally this actually is *not* free speech, at least in the USA and in Canada anyway. In the USA, "free speech" does not include speech that incites hatred AFAIK, so these are not protected.
In Canada, "hate speech" is specifically against the law. If you saw someone wearing one of these in public, you could call over a nearby police officer and have the person arrested for inciting race hatred.
I am sooo hoping I run into some dumbass stupid enough to wear one of these things on a public street.
it's easy enough to find out.
and they are real.
and they are for sale.
and they are revolting.
and it's still free speech.
and of course we are free to boycott the site and write them our opinion of the crap they sell.
Offensive, right? But see where it's from. All of a sudden not so offensive. In the same circumstances, I reckon the T-shirts above would be pretty funny. Good word play. Show me someone actually wearing one. Doubt you'll find anyone.
While I disagree with your last statement, thanks for the inducement to go looking for where they came from. I found it. And someone did complain. And here's the response they got from the site's management:
Score one for the good guys.
OK, I was wrong...
One can be revolted without calling for censorship. Free speech permits as much.
Can you provide a link to back this up? The folks at the WBC have been preaching hatred for years and it hasn't been a problem for the most part.
Declaring such a shirt revolting is free speech. Telling anyone making or wearing them how disgusting you find them is free speech. Encouraging others to disassociate themselves from disgusting people is free speech. Complaining to the manufacturer is free speech. For the manufacturer to declare they want no link between themselves and such expression and to discontinue the shirt on that basis is free speech.
Free speech only means the government cannot stop your expression by law. It does not guarantee you an audience, cooperation or support, and it does not protect you from the extralegal consequences of such speech.
In the U.S., probably the shirt would be legally protected. A law directly criminalizing even so vile a shirt as that would be unconstitutional. U.S. courts interpret "incitement" very rigidly. The expression would have to be of such a nature that someone receiving the message would be reasonably expected to immediately commit a crime in response to it.
Instead of hate speech laws, the U.S. more often treats racial hatred as an aggravating factor in other crimes. You cannot be arrested for simply wearing that shirt, but woe betide you should you actually end up in some sort of confrontation as a result of it. The law will take your otherwise constitutionally protected hate mongering into account when deciding the disposition of your case.