Rove 'proud' of US waterboarding

toontra

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Feb 6, 2003
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London UK
"In a BBC interview, Karl Rove, who was known as "Bush's brain", said he "was proud we used techniques that broke the will of these terrorists".
He said waterboarding, which simulates drowning, should not be considered torture."

Seems to run contrary to almost everyone else who says that waterboarding is indeed torture.

BBC link including video interview
 

eawmp1

macrumors 601
Feb 19, 2008
4,130
5
FL
1) Is there any evidence that the torture gave up real/actionable intelligence that saved lives? (not that this justifies it).
2) His dismissing waterboarding as not torture runs contrary to the long-standing US position of waterboarding as indeed torture. Oh that's right, it's only torture if it happens to US citizens, not "others".

The man is evil.
 

imac/cheese

macrumors 6502a
Jun 7, 2007
555
1
"In a BBC interview, Karl Rove, who was known as "Bush's brain", said he "was proud we used techniques that broke the will of these terrorists".
He said waterboarding, which simulates drowning, should not be considered torture."

Seems to run contrary to almost everyone else who says that waterboarding is indeed torture.

BBC link including video interview
I find it strange that he thinks waterboarding is not torture but it still had the power to break the will of the terrorists.
 

Zombie Acorn

macrumors 65816
Feb 2, 2009
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I find it strange that he thinks waterboarding is not torture but it still had the power to break the will of the terrorists.
Under this statement anything that broke the will of the terrorists would be considered torture, and we'd never be able to obtain information in anyway. Even handing them ice cream as the liberals want to do.
 

NT1440

macrumors G5
May 18, 2008
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Under this statement anything that broke the will of the terrorists would be considered torture, and we'd never be able to obtain information in anyway. Even handing them ice cream as the liberals want to do.
Do you just enjoy coming off in the manner you do? (I can't say it here)

You show such promising flashes of acknowledging reality when you want to, but then just jump right back on the false stereotype bandwagon for some strange reason.

Since when does upholding American ideals and values, like not torturing people, mean we want to give them ice cream and read them bedtime stories? Where do you get this retarded view of liberals from?
 

leekohler

macrumors G5
Dec 22, 2004
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Chicago, Illinois
Under this statement anything that broke the will of the terrorists would be considered torture, and we'd never be able to obtain information in anyway. Even handing them ice cream as the liberals want to do.
Yeah, that's what everybody wants, to hand terrorists ice cream. :rolleyes: Can we please keep the level of discussion real? I mean, is it that hard?
 

Zombie Acorn

macrumors 65816
Feb 2, 2009
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It was obviously an overstatement. Regular interrogation techniques are not going to work on these guys (they are blowing themselves up for a god, you are going to talk them out of intel?), so you either decide whether you want intel or not. If not, you deal with the consequences.
 

leekohler

macrumors G5
Dec 22, 2004
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Chicago, Illinois
It was obviously an overstatement. Regular interrogation techniques are not going to work on these guys (they are blowing themselves up for a god, you are going to talk them out of intel?), so you either decide whether you want intel or not. If not, you deal with the consequences.
Torture doesn't work either. Why? Because people will say anything to get it to stop- including making things up if they don't know anything. And if they really believe in their cause, they'll never tell you the truth no matter what you do. It's simply not reliable.
 

Zombie Acorn

macrumors 65816
Feb 2, 2009
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Toronto, Ontario
Torture doesn't work either. Why? Because people will say anything to get it to stop- including making things up if they don't know anything. It's simply not reliable.
So given two scenarios:

a) 10 pieces of intel, 9 are wrong.

a) no intel

which would you choose?

lets keep in mind we often have more than one person under interrogation, if two stories are corroborated its more likely to be true.
 

NT1440

macrumors G5
May 18, 2008
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It was obviously an overstatement. Regular interrogation techniques are not going to work on these guys (they are blowing themselves up for a god, you are going to talk them out of intel?)
Except that we have......:rolleyes:

Reality too hard to deal with today? You had such a good streak.
 

leekohler

macrumors G5
Dec 22, 2004
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Chicago, Illinois
So given two scenarios:

a) 10 pieces of intel, 9 are wrong.

a) no intel

which would you choose?

lets keep in mind we often have more than one person under interrogation, if two stories are corroborated its more likely to be true.
How do you have two corroborated stories if 9 of 10 are wrong? And how do you know which ones are right?
 

Raid

macrumors 68020
Feb 18, 2003
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Toronto
So given two scenarios:

a) 10 pieces of intel, 9 are wrong.

a) no intel

which would you choose?

lets keep in mind we often have more than one person under interrogation, if two stories are corroborated its more likely to be true.
I would chose to uphold the values of liberty and freedom my country was founded on and not torture them, and not fan the flames of hate in their compatriots; and give them their day in court to answer for their actions and the evidence brought against them.
 

leekohler

macrumors G5
Dec 22, 2004
14,162
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Chicago, Illinois
I would chose to uphold the values of liberty and freedom my country was founded on and not torture them, and not fan the flames of hate in their compatriots; and give them their day in court to answer for their actions and the evidence brought against them.
There you have it.
 

StruckANerve

macrumors 6502
Dec 31, 2008
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Rio Rancho, NM
I would chose to uphold the values of liberty and freedom my country was founded on and not torture them, and not fan the flames of hate in their compatriots; and give them their day in court to answer for their actions and the evidence brought against them.
And when innocent people die because of your choice what then? Waterboarding being this horrible torture is almost laughable when you hear accounts of the things that have been done to U.S. soldiers in other countries.
 

NT1440

macrumors G5
May 18, 2008
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And when innocent people die because of your choice what then? Waterboarding being this horrible torture is almost laughable when you hear accounts of the things that have been done to U.S. soldiers in other countries.
Ah, the old "if we don't use it people will die" routine. With just a peppering of the "they do worse (therefore screw our values and laws/precedents)" mantra.

All part of the torturers catchphrase casserole.

Edit: How are you going to know that people died because you didn't torture? Wouldn't that basically mean you knew what information you were torturing to get, before you ever tortured? When an attack occurs do you really think the lives lost can be attributed to "damn, I guess we didn't torture enough people." Lets not even get into the fact that most of the terrorist soldiers know little to nothing about overall plots other than their direct part of it, which is usually a very small task.
 

toontra

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Feb 6, 2003
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London UK
Waterboarding being this horrible torture is almost laughable .....
How do you know - have you tried it? Apparently it's like drowning. Doesn't sound like fun to me. Bear in mind the victim has no idea that he isn't about to die - that's the idea!

........when you hear accounts of the things that have been done to U.S. soldiers in other countries.
So where would you stop then?
 

StruckANerve

macrumors 6502
Dec 31, 2008
392
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Rio Rancho, NM
Edit: How are you going to know that people died because you didn't torture? Wouldn't that basically mean you knew what information you were torturing to get, before you ever tortured? When an attack occurs do you really think the lives lost can be attributed to "damn, I guess we didn't torture enough people." Lets not even get into the fact that most of the terrorist soldiers know little to nothing about overall plots other than their direct part of it, which is usually a very small task.
Your looking at it backwards. If people die from a terrorist attack whether we tortured enough people really has no bearing on it. But if we gather intel from a supect through waterboarding or other psychological torture and even 1 innocent persons life is saved was it worth it? I would say yes.
 

NT1440

macrumors G5
May 18, 2008
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13,989
Your looking at it backwards. If people die from a terrorist attack whether we tortured enough people really has no bearing on it. But if we gather intel from a supect through waterboarding or other psychological torture and even 1 innocent persons life is saved was it worth it? I would say yes.
How do you know they have information on something coming in the future that you wouldn't know about otherwise? You also completely ignored that terrorist organizations are set up in a manner that no one really knows much of anything other than the higher ups, even the cell leaders know next to nothing.
 

leekohler

macrumors G5
Dec 22, 2004
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Chicago, Illinois
Your looking at it backwards. If people die from a terrorist attack whether we tortured enough people really has no bearing on it. But if we gather intel from a supect through waterboarding or other psychological torture and even 1 innocent persons life is saved was it worth it? I would say yes.
So- we sacrifice our values and become just like our enemies? That's not what I call winning.
 

StruckANerve

macrumors 6502
Dec 31, 2008
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Rio Rancho, NM
How do you know - have you tried it? Apparently it's like drowning. Doesn't sound like fun to me. Bear in mind the victim has no idea that he isn't about to die - that's the idea!



So where would you stop then?
I would say most kinds of Physical torture we should avoid, Like electrocution and severing small appendages or causing lacerations or burns. Those kinds of things are horrible. Waterboarding and Psychological attacks I really don't consider that serious. Telling a terrorist we'll kill his friends and family or him if he doesn't help us is not really that big of a deal.