Rumored Future of Chimera

chmorley

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Jan 2, 2002
602
2
Denver, CO
So it's been two weeks since the last update of Chimera was released. For most software (even beta), this is not a long time. For Chimera, it is. Sure, they took about 3 weeks to integrate Quartz rendering into v 0.2.0, but that's about the longest they've taken. Combine this with it being in the dock (and actually running in the background) at WWDC, it makes me start thinking...

People have guessed (or prayed) in the past that Apple might develop OmniWeb through to a more complete version. With OmniGroup being a fully functional software company, this always seemed unlikely. Now here comes Chimera, part of the Mozilla project, not making any money....

I am wondering if Apple has started to develop (or will soon) Chimera.

What do people think? Any chance?

Chris
 

Taft

macrumors 65816
Jan 31, 2002
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Chicago
I doubt it.

I don't think its likely that Apple will jump into open source so thoroughly. They seem to prefer the FreeBSD style of licensing (whch doesn't force them to give up their source for all derivative products).

Given the fact that Mozilla is GPL and Apple would have to relinquish the source to any completed product using Mozilla code, I find it pretty unlikely. I think that Omniweb is a far more likely choice for them (though even that is unlikely IMO).

Taft
 

MacManiac1224

macrumors regular
Oct 21, 2001
227
0
NY
I think

I think it is very likely that Apple would develop Chimera, becasue they really can't do it in the public's eye, for the fear of retaliation from Microsoft, so they worok on Chimera behind the scenes, and slowly build it up to be on equal footing with IE, then include it with every operating system, leave IE in the dock on startup, and just put Chimera as a pre-installed application in the Applications folder, therefore leaving Apple in good standing with MSFT.
 

AmbitiousLemon

Moderator emeritus
Nov 28, 2001
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down in Fraggle Rock
Not Apple... Netscape. We all saw recently that Apple had dropped ie from their ads to be replaced with netscape in the dock. Also Chimera has moved into mozilla.org which implies to me that it is now being developed for Netscape (keep in mind i have little to no understanding of the organization at mozilla.org/mozdev.org). Also Apple and AOL have demonstrated a relationship with the unveiling of iChat and AOL is Netscape. I think we can expect "Navigator" to be a Netscape Product perhaps bundled with Jaguar, demostrating Apple's new relationship with AOL. This would also explain the release date of Jaguar in the late summer... after the m$ deal is over... no more need to bundle ie.
 

Taft

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Jan 31, 2002
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Originally posted by AmbitiousLemon
Not Apple... Netscape. We all saw recently that Apple had dropped ie from their ads to be replaced with netscape in the dock. Also Chimera has moved into mozilla.org which implies to me that it is now being developed for Netscape (keep in mind i have little to no understanding of the organization at mozilla.org/mozdev.org). Also Apple and AOL have demonstrated a relationship with the unveiling of iChat and AOL is Netscape. I think we can expect "Navigator" to be a Netscape Product perhaps bundled with Jaguar, demostrating Apple's new relationship with AOL. This would also explain the release date of Jaguar in the late summer... after the m$ deal is over... no more need to bundle ie.
That's some serious speculation you got going there. I think its plausible that Netscape would pick up something like Chimera, but its far more likely that they'll continue to develop and refine their existing product.

And I'm still not sure Apple is betting the farm on Netscape. I think its possible that Apple would buy out another firm for a browser. In such a scenario, I think Omnigroup might be high on their list. They've got a lot of great products there that Apple could use to battle their evil foe.

Taft
 

AmbitiousLemon

Moderator emeritus
Nov 28, 2001
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yes i enjoyed reading my wild speculations as well.

omni group is a sweet lil company. im so in love with omnigraffle. VERY mac like in everything they do.

but there is something weird going on with chimera/netscape

its likely apple is just using various browsers because they dont have to use ie anymore. so they are just messing with a bunchh of stuff.
 

sparkleytone

macrumors 68020
Oct 28, 2001
2,307
0
Greensboro, NC
i think it may be a powerful statement that Schiller is using Chimera being that he seems to be the head honcho with Software.

I'm not so positive Apple would be allowed to bundle it even if they worked on it, due to the Open Source roots it has and the fact that OS X is indeed not free.

CVS updating has picked up this week with Mr. Pinkerton picking up some slack.

Only time will tell.
 

jelloshotsrule

macrumors G3
Feb 7, 2002
9,591
3
serendipity
interesting theory about netscape...

it would kinda fit, what with it being called "navigator" now...

i had been wondering if chimera would have had to get the ok/pay netscape to use that name....
 

chmorley

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Jan 2, 2002
602
2
Denver, CO
Interesting, but I'm confused...

Surely showing my ignorance here, but why would it be a problem for Apple to bundle free software with OS X? They do that already. Granted, it's not open source, but why would that create a problem? Taft, you seem to be describing a legal and/or technical issue that I don't understand. Is it that Apple wouldn't want anyone else messing with their software? Couldn't they set up a Netscape model, in which their software is based on the open-source Mozilla project, but still be able to make their own browser based on it? Certainly, there could be other (non-Apple) variants of it, but why would that be a problem?

The Netscape thing is interesting, but it doesn't fit. Netscape has never put Mac software at the top of their list. Besides, they have always wanted their software to look the same across platforms. I can't imagine that is going to change.

I'm not sure I buy my own Apple wish, either, but I think it's more likely than other possibilities discussed here.

Chris :rolleyes:
 

chmorley

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Jan 2, 2002
602
2
Denver, CO
Originally posted by AmbitiousLemon
<snip>...Also Chimera has moved into mozilla.org which implies to me that it is now being developed for Netscape (keep in mind i have little to no understanding of the organization at mozilla.org/mozdev.org)... </snip>
Sorry, AL, but I'm not sure what you mean. I checked, and the old Chimera.mozdev.org site I've always gone to still works, and I don't see Chimera listed among the Mozilla.org's projects. What are you seeing that I'm missing?

Chris
 

Kid Red

macrumors 65816
Dec 14, 2001
1,379
87
There's a thread at MacNN that the developement for Chimera has stopped for now. The main develeoper will be out of town or something until July or so according to a poster. I asked for the link where he read it, but if true, it'll be 2.7 for a few months.
 

Taft

macrumors 65816
Jan 31, 2002
1,319
0
Chicago
Re: Interesting, but I'm confused...

Originally posted by chmorley
Surely showing my ignorance here, but why would it be a problem for Apple to bundle free software with OS X? They do that already. Granted, it's not open source, but why would that create a problem? Taft, you seem to be describing a legal and/or technical issue that I don't understand. Is it that Apple wouldn't want anyone else messing with their software? Couldn't they set up a Netscape model, in which their software is based on the open-source Mozilla project, but still be able to make their own browser based on it?
The issue is that Mozilla is licensed under the GPL. This means that anyone can get the source code for Mozilla and create their own products using the existing code. The catch is that you must make the source code for any such project available to the public and that source code must be GPL'd. So if Apple makes a browser based off of Mozilla code, they must release the source code for that browser to the general public.

Why do I think that Apple wouldn't do that? Well, Apple is embracing the Open Source movement. But they are not embracing the GPL. Instead they chose to license Darwin (their open source project) under the FreeBSD licensing scheme. Under this license, new products can be based on old source code without distributing the source code to the new product.

The FreeBSD seems to fit Apple's business model better. Apple likes to be more closed and proprietary with their products. FreeBSD allows that to happen: the base system in OS X is open source and contributions from the general public are allowed, but the GUI and everything else on top of that base system is closed and proprietary. This is exactly how Apple probably wants it.

So my point here is that basing a browser off of Mozilla code wouldn't exactly fit with Apple's past actions. They would have to release the source code to their browser. This would allow the browser to be ported to Linux, Solaris and *gasp* Windows. Software is one of the big reasons people choose Macs. Allowing software to be ported to other platforms would take that advantage away.

I think if Apple was going to build their own browser, they would make it very Mac-like (user friendly and elegant) and very proprietary. That is the pattern of Apple-past and I don't see them breaking it.

Taft
 

Taft

macrumors 65816
Jan 31, 2002
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0
Chicago
Originally posted by Kid Red
There's a thread at MacNN that the developement for Chimera has stopped for now. The main develeoper will be out of town or something until July or so according to a poster. I asked for the link where he read it, but if true, it'll be 2.7 for a few months.
This is exactly what I was afraid of!!

This project needs more contributors. And fast.

Taft
 

AmbitiousLemon

Moderator emeritus
Nov 28, 2001
3,338
0
down in Fraggle Rock
"David Hyatt" <mozdave@hotmail.com> wrote:

I'm on sabbatical until July 10, and since I'm the only one who can really
do Chimera builds (given the huge patch that exists only in my tree), I
doubt there will be any builds for a couple of months. I also won't be
working on Chimera again until July.

I could post the patch to a bug, but then someone will have to do the
(rather difficult) work of understanding how to merge the patch to the trunk
as changes occur.


Dave
that was written 5/16/02. Since then many people have offered to take over and it has all been ignored (as usual with the chimera guys).
 

sparkleytone

macrumors 68020
Oct 28, 2001
2,307
0
Greensboro, NC
Rumored Future of Chimera

1. Apple starts an aggressive anti-windows/Microshaft campaign
2. Jobs testifies at Microshaft trial
3. Chimera shows up an Apple downloads
4. Chimera shows up at Apple's Xserve introduction
5. Couple of days later Dave says he is going on sabatical untill July 10th
6. MacWorld is July 15th

Did I miss anything?

I might be streching, but is this all coincidence? Or are we looking at
Apples new browser of choice.
interesting to say the least. i grabbed this off the Chimera newsgroup.

Who knows EXACTLY when the M$ deal ends??
 

AmbitiousLemon

Moderator emeritus
Nov 28, 2001
3,338
0
down in Fraggle Rock
chmorley: the chimera team has been in the process of moving from mozdev to mozilla.org for about a month now, currently all the bugs have moved to bugzilla, but the move continues. as with everything with these guys communication is poor and progress is even slower, so i am not sure why or when the move will be completed.

but this among many things is a lot of people's reason for thinking netscape may be interested in the project. aol/netscape being a favorite of apple and the apple/m$ deal over very soon i think it would not be unreasonable for apple to bundle a netscape branded navigator at some point in the future.

in fact many people suspect that dave's "sabbatical" until july is more evidence of this (mwny being when he comes back), although id guess the guy is just taking a vacation like he said.


cnet (as usual) has their own spin on things link

but if you guys are really interested you should just subscribe to the chimera list serve. thats where im getting all this stuff.
 

kungfu

macrumors regular
Jan 21, 2002
149
0
hey get this... if you go into the about panel in chimera, at the very bottom after it scrolls for a while it says: "special thanks to: apple computer software engineering"... hmmm?
 

j763

macrumors 6502a
Nov 25, 2001
660
0
Champaign, IL, USA
hmmmm.... all very interesting! Here's my 0.02:

Apple won't buy OmniGroup or any of their products, the guys at Apple talk fondly of OmniGroup as a great example of some third-party developers making great products. Apple wants to encourage third-party development on OS X... They can't make EVERYTHING on their own. As for GPL, sure, they don't like it, but unless they reach a special deal with satan (aol) or *build their own browser from scratch* both of which I think are unlikly, they're stuck with GPL and well, i don't think they'd really care too much if people saw the source code for an Apple browser. So, Chimera is the most likely... If apple made an 'ibrowser' that would piss microsoft off in the extreme, so apple might just help the folks at Chimera out by taking them to v1.0 or something. that would be a massive improvement considering we've got v0.2.7 now. and advertise chimera on their site...

well, we'll just have to wait and see...
 

jaykk

macrumors 6502a
Jan 5, 2002
854
5
CA
Sour Grapes

Microsoft is already upset.. here is the excerpts from osopinion regarding Apple and AOL tie up.

" Late this week, CNNMoney reported that the folks at MSN are a tad bitter at Apple for choosing AOL's technology, and at AOL for offering Apple that which it had refused Microsoft.

CNN reported that MSN director Bob Visse said, "Looks like AOL is picking out another weak stepsister to interoperate with."

Where does MSN get off taking jabs at Apple, of all companies, for its lack of enough business skills to establish partnerships with America Online? This attack was totally unwarranted, and, if nothing else, shows MSN's attitude toward its Mac customer base.

With an attitude like that, it's no wonder that MSN has failed to offer any real competition against AOL's huge subscriber base "

read full story here
http://www.osopinion.com/perl/story/17819.html
 

mmmdreg

macrumors 65816
Apr 14, 2002
1,393
0
Sydney, Australia
there's no reason apple needs to work on chimera behind the scenes...maybe they can take over if the going becomes too slow but until then, whoever is doing it right now should manage for a while...why don't people here go and help out?
 

mmmdreg

macrumors 65816
Apr 14, 2002
1,393
0
Sydney, Australia
I was on the Chimera mailing list and someone asked how long it'll be till the next build...the guy went on holidays or something so he said although he will be making new builds, they wont be released a maybe a few months...
 

britboy

macrumors 68030
Nov 4, 2001
2,656
0
Kent, UK
There was an interesting article about the possibility of an 'iBrowser' on theregister recently. If you're interested, check it out. It does seem like a strange set of coincidences, what with Apple proclaiming Chimera as the browser of choice for OS X, and the main developers (David Hyatt) reported as being a 'mac-nut'.

I don't think it would be a bad thing at all, for apple to come out with their own browser. What would it be called? iNet? :)