Russia/Georgia invade South Ossetia

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by miloblithe, Aug 8, 2008.

  1. miloblithe macrumors 68020

    miloblithe

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    #1
    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/09/w...bl&ex=1218340800&en=d4c414f9c450e60e&ei=5087

    This could get ugly.
     
  2. OscarTheGrouch macrumors 6502

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    #2
  3. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #3
    Sounds like the Georgians killed civilians in what can only be described as a terrorist attack on innocents. And, being Americans, we know that provides more than sufficient justification to launch an attack, hold prisoners indefinitely, and torture people.

    Besides, what would we be doing if, say, portions of the Hawaiian population was making eyes at China and looking to break away and join Chinese alliances?
    The g-g-g-ghost of General Sherman has risen?
     
  4. SilentPanda Moderator emeritus

    SilentPanda

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    #4
    I'm confused... I read the CNN article twice and can't figure out who is attacking who and who is upset about it.

    It sounds like Russia is attacking part of southern Georgia that is/is not part of Georgia. But then it sounded like Georgia was attacking that region too... I'm confused... :confused:
     
  5. miloblithe thread starter macrumors 68020

    miloblithe

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    #5
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_ossetia

    Basically, this is more like a Taiwan/Kosovo type issue. South Ossetia, along with Abkhazia has been outside of Georgian control since the civil war in Georgia in early 1990s, but is not recognized by (I think) any other countries as independent.

    Georgia invaded today, which prompted Russia to send a column of tanks to back up their peacekeepers already in South Ossetia. Whether or not Georgia was provoked by South Ossetians to invade seems to still be a question.
     
  6. OscarTheGrouch macrumors 6502

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    #6

    From my understanding the whole Georgia/South Ossetia relationship is tenuous at best, but they have been relatively calm since 04.

    Russia I think does/did recognize South Ossetia, and is doing what it feels it needs to protect it (Not saying this is right or wrong).

    I dont think we will never know the whole truth to what started it all thanks to so many conflicting reports from unfree presses.
     
  7. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #7
    I wonder if in part, this is a tit for tat reaction to Kosovo. Russia has been very protective of Serbia over the years.

    I believe it's very possible that this is a Russian instigated situation.
     
  8. SilentPanda Moderator emeritus

    SilentPanda

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    #8
    Ah... so Georgia invaded "itself" and Russia came to help the part of Georgia that may or may not be Georgia to protect the people they had their?
     
  9. pimentoLoaf macrumors 68000

    pimentoLoaf

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    #9
    You know ...

    This is the storyline of the first-person shooter Ghost Recon, where the Ossetian region is taken over by ultra-nationalists, before everything spreads throughout Russia.

    And ... :eek: ... it takes place in '08 or '09, if I recall. :cool:
     
  10. miloblithe thread starter macrumors 68020

    miloblithe

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    #10
    Sort of. It depends on your point of view. South Ossetians would certainly argue the point that South Ossetia is not part of Georgia.

    Ugg, I definitely think the tit for tat with Kosovo is part of it, but not all. I think NATO expansion is a bigger issue and missile defense, along with domestic politics. This should catapult Medvedev to Putin-level approval ratings.
     
  11. BoyBach macrumors 68040

    BoyBach

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    #11
    Russia invades its neighbour whilst the worlds media and leaders are all ensconced in Beijing. Merely a coincidence, of course. :rolleyes:
     
  12. Macky-Mac macrumors 68030

    Macky-Mac

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  13. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #13
    The Georgians have failed to find a solution in a decade to a problem of their own making. The Ossetians, both North (in Russia) and South (in Georgia) have a different language, script, ethnic origin and culture from the Georgians. They are descended from the 4th century BCE tribe of Sarmatians, who were mentioned by Herodotus and who served as cavalry in the Roman army. They go back a long way. In 1989, the Georgian government tried to ban the Ossetian language and impose the Georgian language and script. Having had autonomy within Georgia all through the Soviet era, the Ossetians did not take kindly to this, not surprisingly, and broke away. Add to the cocktail the presence of many ethnic Russians, the fact that North Ossetians enjoy better status within Russia, and the Pankisi Gorge, which is a lawless enclave of heavily-armed Chechens protected by the Georgians with US connivance and support as a provocation to the Russians, and you have a wonderful recipe for disaster. As usual, a diplomatic solution will be the only viable route, but too many people have too much to gain from keeping the area off-balance for them to invest adequate attention to achieve this. Suffice it to say that allowing Georgia to become a member of NATO while all this is going on would be both lethal and totally irresponsible, which is probably why George Bush and his willy-waving advisors are all for it.
     
  14. bemylover macrumors regular

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    #14
    Almost nothing of the above is correct. Get your facts right.
     
  15. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #15
    No doubt this will be Barack Obama's fault. :rolleyes:
     
  16. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #16
    Perhaps you'd like to give me the benefit of your vastly superior knowledge?

    Edit: I have deleted an incorrect reference to Shevardnadze, who was not in power in Georgia until 1995. Otherwise, I stand by my text.
     
  17. SilentPanda Moderator emeritus

    SilentPanda

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    #17
    Bring on Jack Thompson!
     
  18. gauchogolfer macrumors 603

    gauchogolfer

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    #18
    The usual response one makes upon seeing something incorrect is to correct it, rather than just say 'nyah nyah nyah'. Care to do so?
     
  19. iShater macrumors 604

    iShater

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    #19
    Glad that I am not the only one who was just thinking that and freaking out over the fact! :eek: :D
     
  20. bemylover macrumors regular

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    #20
    OK, I did not point out the incorrect stuff because there were so many of them, but since you insist...

    Georgians tried all they could to find peaceful solution. They offered federal state with highest degree of sovereignty possible(higher than what North Ossetia has in Russia). The only answer to these offers was that Ossetia was independent and there was nothing to discuss.
    Yeah, I've also seen the King Arthur movie but what does this have to do with current situation?
    First of all let me point out that in 1989 there was no sovereign Georgia, there was Soviet Socialist Republic of Georgia, part of the USSR. Shevardnadze came to power in 1992. Nobody tried to ban Ossetian language and Georgian language and script were there during Soviet times too, so there was no need to impose them.
    There declaration of independence by Ossetian officials is the reason of the troubles, not the result. If they did not declare it nobody would touch the autonomy(like nobody touched Adjarian autonomy). They did the declaration of independence in two steps:

    step 1: they canceled the autonomous status within Georgia that they had.
    step 2: they declared total independence.

    Georgian officials agreed to the first step but did not agree to the second, thus effectively canceling the autonomy.

    This maybe was not right thing to do, but it was not like Georgia all the sudden took away the autonomy for no reason.
    There are hardly any.
    This is not true.
    The Pankisi Gorge is not an issue since 2002 and even then it was a separate issue. We can talk about it if you want but it has nothing to do with current situation.
    This is probably the most accurate part of the posting.
    This could be true, but could be not true too, but that's a different topic of discussion and I don't want to go there.
     
  21. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #21
    I think it's safe to say that many of us here know little about Georgia and Ossetia. Since the forum rules clearly state that links must be provided, I think you and skunk would do well to enlighten us with some factual information from reasonably unbiased sources.

    If it's not too much trouble of course:rolleyes:
     
  22. miloblithe thread starter macrumors 68020

    miloblithe

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    #22
    source?

    Here's one that contradicts yours:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian-Ossetian_conflict

    The actual source though is:

    Hastening The End of the Empire, TIME Magazine, January 28, 1991
     
  23. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #23
    I haven't had the pleasure. The history simply reinforces the reasons for the strong feelings of independence from Georgia felt by the Ossetians.


    I have corrected my dates. Perhaps you should correct yours: Shevardnadze did not come to power until 1995.
    Oh, really? My source (http://www.pcgn.org.uk/Georgia - South Ossetia-Jan07.pdf) disagrees:

    This part of your post I can agree with. Nor was this "the right thing to do":


    I acknowledge an error here.

    Of course it is an issue for the Russians. How could it not be?

    Far from being "full of mistakes", it seems that my post was substantially accurate. How biased are you?
     
  24. bemylover macrumors regular

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    #24
    How does that contradict what I said? It does not go in such details as I did with my step1 and step 2 thing, but it clearly says that first there was Ossetian declaration of independence and then the abolishing of the autonomy by Georgia. That was the main point I was trying to make.

    Ugg, what I wrote is what I remember personally, so I don't have any sources at hand. Some sources were provided by gentlemen above, if you need more let me know and I'll try to find some for you.
     
  25. KingYaba macrumors 68040

    KingYaba

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    #25
    Thread needs some pictures.
     

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