Russian Facebook accounts

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by stylinexpat, Apr 7, 2018.

  1. stylinexpat macrumors 65816

    stylinexpat

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  2. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #2
  3. stylinexpat thread starter macrumors 65816

    stylinexpat

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    #3
    Doesn’t the US do the same..? Actually the US beats Russia at this. They not only interfere in other country’s elections but kill the leaders of those who are not to their likings. Iraq and Libya are two recent examples.
     
  4. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #4
    Exactly, the US trying to take the moral high ground on this is a little too rich.
     
  5. LizKat macrumors 601

    LizKat

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    #5
    You guys are all forgetting the fact that the US is not going to stand around and knowingly allow hostile foreign nations to attack it no matter who maintains some big cumulative scoreboard of moral high ground.

    The government is sworn to protect against those who would harm it. Hacking and messing with us is attempting to harm us. For once "context" cannot modify that assessment.

    I do remember, for example, who helped depose Mossadagh in Iran, and who helped overthrow the government of Chile after Allende was freely elected. That was us.

    But, that's irrelevant to the matter of Russia meddling with the 2016 elections; Russia was attempting to mess with our elections and that's a hostile act warranting notice and proportionate response.​

    Be sure that the other parties will engage in tit-for-tat but it can never be right for the US to yawn and say well we've done that and worse so how big a deal can it be. It's a big deal, any time, every time. What's astonishing to me is that the Republicans seem to have forgotten this in the case of Trump's negligent attitude towards the 2016 meddling by Russians, never mind indications they plan to continue that going forward.
     
  6. Scepticalscribe Contributor

    Scepticalscribe

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    #6
    Excellent post, and I am also very glad to see the overthrow, respectively, of both Mohammed Mossadegh and Salvador Allende mentioned as these were two of the most egregious - morally and politically - examples of malign US interference in the political affairs of other countries.
     
  7. LizKat macrumors 601

    LizKat

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    #7
    They weren't the only ones but definitely among the worst. Thanks for spelling Mossadegh's name correctly... it's waaaay past my bedtime. I absentmindedly drank a cup of coffee earlier while reading news and speculation about the search warrant on Cohen's stuff. I could end up still buzzy for another two hours but I'm getting out of here before I misspell the names of any more heads of state. I'll let my audio book try to put me to sleep. I happen to be re-listening to Stephen Kinzer's All the Shah's Men as a matter of fact, so I'm not sure it will act as a soporific; it was never that the first time through. :D
     
  8. A.Goldberg macrumors 68020

    A.Goldberg

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    #8
    FYI Ronald Lauder is an American, not an Israeli. Regardless the advertisements he evidently supported are shameful.

    Why is the standard of evil or wrongdoing in your mind always measured using Israel as the standardized metric?
     
  9. Solomani macrumors 68040

    Solomani

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    #9
    The Trump warmongers want Assad dead too. Soon if Bolton gets his way.
     
  10. LizKat macrumors 601

    LizKat

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    #10
    This is a mess. Trump was on Russia's page for awhile. Iran and Russia don't want Assad dead although he's a PITA to them and they'll be happy to blame the USA if he does turn up dead because when that happens all hell will break loose and it conveniently will be our fault. It's what happens when you take a thumb off a compressed spring like we did in Iraq. Who knows what else anyone could expect eventually in Syria, because the Alawites are a tiny minority ruling by wit and fear, and sooner or later will lose control. Iran would like to just move in and manage the place.

    I don't know what Israel wants regarding Syria really. It's not about Assad so much as the geography and the terrain. They don't feel secure living next to someone with a terrain advantage who wants to kill them. It is how it is unless they can make a peace.

    I know what Israel wants for Iran though, and to me Bibi is something akin to Bolton. It's scary.
     
  11. Zenithal macrumors 604

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    #11
    I can absolutely see Donald and John getting into a spat in the Oval Office, and Trump being Trump, will grab John's mustache by the ends like a child and pull on them, hard, while cursing out loud. Staffers come scrambling in and are in both shock and awe. The President is getting his hands dirty so to speak, but for a 230+ lb guy he's sure light on his feet dancing around while manhandling another man.
     
  12. stylinexpat thread starter macrumors 65816

    stylinexpat

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    #12
    That is like someone moving into a forest and then declaring war on all animals in forest because they say that the animals pose a threat to their security or declaring war on all animals in sea because they pose a threat to their lives at the beach. Government will not allow people to hunt sharks
     
  13. Solomani macrumors 68040

    Solomani

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    #13
    It's a complicated political mess there. I do understand Bibi wants to harass Assad simply because he is an ally of both Iran and Hezbollah. It's also because Hezbollah is receiving valuable wartime training in the Syrian Civil War. As for Israel attacking Assad's Syrian forces or its cities, it's internationally criminal, it's also pointless in and of itself. Israel is attacking a nation that is badly crippled and cannot retaliate or even be a threat to Israel. The last time the Syrian Government was a military threat to Israel was decades ago, in the so-called Arab Israeli Wars of the 60s and 70s.

    But part of Israel attacking pro-Assad forces in Syria is also a symbolic "threat" to Iran and Hezbollah (who have significant presence in Assad-controlled regions). Which then makes us all conclude: Israel is too afraid and cowardly to attack Iran and Hezbollah directly in their own soil (Hezbollah's home soil is in Lebanon, not Syria). So Israel is happy to attack Hezbollah's and Iran's expeditionary forces instead (while they are in Syria).

    It's really about fighting long-distance proxy wars. In fact, this is exactly analogous to how the US Forces in Syria (alongside the SDF rebel jihadists) are eager to kill and lob missiles and bombs directly at Russian (expeditionary) forces in Syria, killing scores of them. But do you ever hear of the US Forces lobbing missiles or even nukes directly at Russian cities? Of course not. That would trigger World War 3.

    U.S. Strikes Killed Scores of Russia Fighters in Syria, Sources Say
     
  14. Papanate macrumors 6502

    Papanate

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    #14
    It's not censorship - The Mossad have bucketloads of incriminating information
    that would effectively end most politicians careers if revealed.
     
  15. JayMysterio macrumors 6502

    JayMysterio

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    #15
    Facebook also wouldn't close Australian fraudulent accounts as well...
    https://www.theroot.com/the-biggest-black-lives-matter-facebook-page-is-a-fak-1825133310
    o_O
     
  16. Solomani macrumors 68040

    Solomani

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    #16
    Like what? Like Donald Trump had some hanky-spanky time with Stormy Daniels? That sleaze news is already well known to all Americans.

    As for Mossad having anything on Zuckerberg…. oh boy, The Zuck is in big trouble already. His career is pretty much in ruins. He's about to get roasted soon in front of Congress. Not sure there is anything left to say bad about him. He's already a reviled punching bag throughout the Internet. Even Wozniak is joining the bandwagon, publicly kicking Zuckerberg while he's down. You'd think Woz would have just a little more class than that, but nope. Woz is exactly in the same league as Tim Cook (wagging his finger at Zuckerberg) here.

    What next? Maybe Donald Trump himself might join in and slam Mark Zuckerberg too, saying "Zuckerberg is a vile person for not being transparent, and for doing dirty corrupt underhanded things to his (FaceBook) customers. Mark is full of dirty laundry. Shame on him!"

    So much winning, Donald.
     
  17. juanm macrumors 65816

    juanm

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    #17
    Trump actually hates sharks.
    --- Post Merged, Apr 10, 2018 ---
    You're confused... SDF has been fighting against Al Nusra, IS, etc. Who do you think liberated Raqqa from IS?
     
  18. Scepticalscribe Contributor

    Scepticalscribe

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    #18
    @LizKat: I had to look up Urban Dictionary to find out what "PITA" means in such a context. Well, it is nice to try to learn something new each day.
     
  19. Papanate macrumors 6502

    Papanate

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    #19
    Not even close to what is known by Intelligence around the world.
    Orange Julius has some big skeletons in his closet about his economic
    dealings in Iran and Iraq in the late 90s and 2000s.
     
  20. LizKat macrumors 601

    LizKat

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    #20
    I actually did re-read that thing before I posted it... and thought, hmm, not only in my own kitchen but in kitchens in the Middle East that term does have a primary meaning and in this case it almost suits the context...

    It's interesting to consider that Assad's turf strikes Russia and Iran as a kind of territorial sandwich they'd be happy to supply alternate fillings for (if not for the blowback that would only extend the current chaos).

    Still, it was wee hours for me at that point so I let stand my initial and slangy take on how they must feel about Bashar al-Assad sometimes. My breezy slang doesn't do him justice. He has turned out to be every bit the butcher his father Hafez was.

    Sad to think the world once hoped for something better from Hafez' second son, if only the political obscurity Bashar had already shown he was pursuing in London as an ophthalmologist. He wasn't even second in the original succession plan. He had begun some tentative reforms as he tried to mold a reorganizing government to his preferences. I remember thinking it was cool he was setting up more high tech IT in Syria after his accession.

    But primarily because of the currents of mutual fear and contempt between the Alewites and Sunnis, it's not likely anyone who inherited the mantle of the man who directed the first of the (three, so far) massacres of his own citizens in Hama was ever likely to run a different course for Syria. The expectations of both Bashar's carefully constructed set of loyalists and his opposition almost had to guarantee his reversion to how his father had governed.

    Robert Fisk in writing about Lebanon but covering its deep entanglements with Syria might well have agreed that the chosen title of Pity the Nation applied as well to the latter country.

    He quoted from Khalil Gibran's In the Garden of the Prophet in the preface of the book, to source that title:

    Pity the nation that is full of beliefs and empty of religion.
    Pity the nation that wears a cloth it does not weave, eats a bread it does not harvest, and drinks a wine that flows not from its own wine-press.
    Pity the nation that acclaims the bully as hero, and that deems the glittering conqueror bountiful.
    Pity the nation that despises a passion in its dream, yet submits in its awakening.
    Pity the nation that raises not its voice save when it walks in a funeral, boasts not except among its ruins, and will rebel not save when its neck is laid between the sword and the block.
    Pity the nation whose statesman is a fox, whose philosopher is a juggler, and whose art is the art of patching and mimicking.
    Pity the nation that welcomes its new ruler with trumpetings and farewells him with hootings, only to welcome another with trumpetings again.
    Pity the nation whose sages are dumb with years and whose strong men are yet in the cradle.
    Pity the nation divided into fragments, each fragment deeming itself a nation.​

    It's up to us in the USA to figure out if we're heading down a path like that here. There are certainly some distant early warning signs been popping up for decades. And yet we have a different if shorter history, and we have a stronger Constitution, and we have... probably just as much denial of our plight as does any nation sometimes unable to shortcut its way to difficult decisions that seem to ask too much of everyone.

    The great risk of course is that some other event, or group of players, will instead set the path forward, no matter how unsuitable it may prove. I find it alarming that more people don't regard the Russians' messing around with our political campaigns as a threat to our continued coexistence together. Their behavior has contributed negatively in the past two years to the obstinate hyperpartisanship we experience together on social media.

    We have always been squabblers as we try to sort the path forward. Lately we're not just squabbling, it's more like preparation to fire shots across bow of each other's ships. All our separately sailing ships... and that's pretty stupid in the face of foreknowledge that we are stronger when we can manage to agree on some core principles and strategies for our future.

    It's clear that social media like Facebook don't make it simpler, perhaps they make it harder for members of groups which disagree to negotiate a compromise that works for both. Maybe it's just the remove from reality that is the problem. We would not say some of the inflammatory things we write to each other in the rude posts one can find online so often. Yet the relative anonymity of Facebook has allowed the Russians to troll us and stir pots at will. It should be food for thought going forward. We don't always know what the motives for "debate" really are among people who claim to be presenting ideas but whose posts may be rather to augment anger and chaotic, unproductive relationships in a given online venue.
     
  21. weckart macrumors 601

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    #21
    It's not as if Russia hasn't tried that, too. The US is just better at it.
     
  22. Scepticalscribe, Apr 10, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2018

    Scepticalscribe Contributor

    Scepticalscribe

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    #22
    Brilliant post.

    Years ago, I read Robert Fisk's "Pity The Nation" but hadn't realised that the quote came from Khalil Gibran (or rather, it had meant nothing to me; I hadn't read or learned to revere Khalil Gibran - and that is a stunning quote, thank you for reminding me of it - at the time).

    Actually, I met Robert Fisk once, at a literary festival around twenty years ago, and he was a terse, tense, brusque man, - he struck me as somewhat devoid of humour and there is no ease or lightness of tone to him, but his books are brilliantly researched and beautifully written.

    Anyway, he was dressing down a young man of middle Eastern extraction who had politely asked Fisk to autograph a book Fisk had written. (I was standing beside the young man, books also in my hand, and questions to ask). Fisk proceeded to inscribe a dedication in Arabic, and expressed incredulity that the young man - who had grown up in the British Isles - couldn't read it as he didn't understand Arabic, "how can someone of your background not know this?" and followed this up by instructing him briskly to "study your culture more". The young man, clearly an admirer of Fisk's, was mortified, somewhat embarrassed, and possibly a little shamed.

    I admire Robert Fisk the writer, and the bleak courage and fierce integrity of the brilliant journalist, but couldn't warm to the man.
     
  23. weckart macrumors 601

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    #23
    Some
    Someone could have politely pointed out that the young man's culture was British.
     
  24. Solomani, Apr 11, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2018

    Solomani macrumors 68040

    Solomani

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    #24

    Yes. A person's ethnic heritage might remain with him for life. But the person's culture can change within a lifetime.

    I have childhood friends who were born in Iran, they were toddlers by the time their parents fled Iran right after the Islamic Republic overthrew the Western-backed Shah. They emigrated to the USA. Decades later, I still keep in touch with the friends. Although their parents are pure Iranian (Persian-speaking, Shia Muslims), my friends no longer consider themselves "Iranian". They don't speak Farsi, they speak English. They are not Muslim, they became Christians and also married Christian wives. They consider themselves Americans. They are American citizens. They have embraced American culture. Their culture is American.
     
  25. Scepticalscribe, Apr 11, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2018

    Scepticalscribe Contributor

    Scepticalscribe

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    #25
    I agree.

    I will say that I was very taken aback - these remarks were entirely unexpected - Robert Fisk also asked the guy whether he had ever visited the region where he (or his parents) came from - to which he received an answer in the negative - and the poor chap was almost scolded and told he should visit and should try to learn the language.
     

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