Russian Opposition Leader Assassinated in Moscow

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by ucfgrad93, Feb 27, 2015.

  1. APlotdevice macrumors 68040

    APlotdevice

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    #26
    Oh I have no doubt this was done in his name. But here's the thing: Putin has his own youth movement. Young people who have been whipped up into a racist, ultra-nationalist fervor. This group has already shown themselves willing to and able to commit acts of violence against his opponents.
     
  2. kds1 Suspended

    kds1

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    #27
    The difference? All three countries you mentioned have this little thing called ISLAM interwoven into everything. Russia doesn't.

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    His own youth movement huh? Hmmmm, where have I heard THAT before?

    Hint: 1930's Germany
     
  3. Technarchy macrumors 604

    Technarchy

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    #28
    Source for instances of worshipping last summer?
     
  4. APlotdevice, Feb 28, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2015

    APlotdevice macrumors 68040

    APlotdevice

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    #29
    Please do not assume I'm defending this, because I'm not. Russia is a scary place under Putin's influence. All I'm saying is that the man doesn't really have to kill people himself; there are people who will to it for him without any prompting.
     
  5. Scepticalscribe macrumors Westmere

    Scepticalscribe

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    #30
    Two excellent, sane, thoughtful and well-argued posts. As usual, the voice of sanity and reason. Very well said, Happybunny.
     
  6. iBlazed macrumors 68000

    iBlazed

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    #31
    Sure! But keep in mind, I'm referring to right wing voters more so than actual politicians. For a second, I thought I might have a difficult time coming up with an actual specific source for that assertion, but 2 seconds of googling proved me wrong. It's pretty well documented. Found a perfect article from August complete with the shirtless horse photo and comments from righties across the interwebs.




     

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  7. Technarchy macrumors 604

    Technarchy

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    #32
    Noted for future reference. I'll troll the comments section of democratic underground as a source for "left wing" voters. Will make perfect sense I'm sure.
     
  8. iBlazed macrumors 68000

    iBlazed

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    #33
    Honestly I felt a lot of that sentiment from conservatives around me in real life, there was a good amount of Putin love from the right around that time. It was apparently a pretty well documented phenomenon. I would source every single link on this topic I found on google, but there just isn't enough time in a day.
     
  9. kds1 Suspended

    kds1

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    #34
    So because of this, we appease Putin by letting him steal Crimea, and any other sovereign territory of other states he may want, now, or in the future?
     
  10. Happybunny macrumors 68000

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    #35
    Russia might not have islam, but it does have WMD.

    The only way in the short term to retake the Krim is by going to war with Russia.
    Is that what you are suggesting happens, as to the violence in East Ukraine it looks like there is finally a ceasefire working.
     
  11. kds1 Suspended

    kds1

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    #36
    What I am saying is that Putin doesn't believe that anyone will ever use any force against him. This is why so many people DO believe if continued weakness on the part of Europe is shown he will roll over the border of the Baltics. If he does, and there is then disagreement among the signatories to The NATO treaty, and NATO now starts to fracture from within, or even startts to break up, Putin will be thrilled ( and further emboldened ) because this is something he would love to see. I'm also sure he is quite aware that Germany basically cannot fulfill it's NATO commitments, further emboldening him more.
     
  12. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #37
    No one will use force against Putin. He has a nuclear arsenal.

    But you don't need to. If he invades the Baltics he won't win the peace, and there will be a trade embargo on Russia. I'm not sure even the Chinese would support him as he'd be attacking another countries sovereignty which they generally oppose.
     
  13. Happybunny macrumors 68000

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    #38
    If that's what you think fine.

    But please stop with all the talk about war, Europe is not going to fight a war over Ukraine or the Krim.

    But if you feel so strongly about the injustice of this state of affairs you could of course, do something about yourself.
     
  14. kds1 Suspended

    kds1

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    #39
    And so does the U.S., U.K., France. I'm not saying nuclear weapons should be used, but if NATO isn't willing to use force, then the organization isn't worth the paper the treaties were signed on.
     
  15. Happybunny macrumors 68000

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    #40
    I remind you again Ukraine is NOT a member of NATO.
     
  16. kds1 Suspended

    kds1

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    #41
    You really should take that line out of your signature because you obviously don't really get it.

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    DOES. NOT. MATTER.
     
  17. Happybunny macrumors 68000

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    #42
    So we should just go to war any way?
     
  18. kds1, Feb 28, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2015

    kds1 Suspended

    kds1

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    #43
    If he invades the Baltics, we'll just slap more sanctions on him? And talk it out? How about hugging it out? And mind you the Baltic states ARE signatories to NATO.

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    Are you willifully blind or just scared of war in Europe? The U.S. and the U.K. will likely start supplying arms to Ukraine soon. As it is, the U.K. has now agreed to and will be sending U.K. Military personnel to Ukraine to train their military and give them guidence. Putin has troops on the ground right now in *Ukraine*, and is supplying the insurgency with arms. We ALL know this.

    I do not want war in Europe. I do not want to see bombs falling again on Europe. I know that if i lived in a tiny country like the Netherlands or any other, I'd be fearful of that too, but Putin is playing the EU like a fiddle, and he has the advantage.
     
  19. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #44
    What you think a trade embargo isn't serious. It's 2015 for Christ sake. Without trade Russia has nothing.

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    If we have nuclear war we all die. And no one has ever defeated Russia in war even without them.
     
  20. Happybunny macrumors 68000

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    #45
    I think that Putin has every right to have troops in Russia.

    Everybody who has half a brain is scared of war, war is not like Hollywood shows it it's dirty and there is a lot of dying.



    Putin is not going to invade the Baltic states. It's just not in his interest to do so.

    The Pro Russian forces in Ukraine are withdrawing.

    The UK and the US can do what they like but they will not drag the rest of Europe into a war over Ukraine.
     
  21. Scepticalscribe, Feb 28, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2015

    Scepticalscribe macrumors Westmere

    Scepticalscribe

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    #46

    Exactly.

    The closest Ukraine came to NATO was at the Bucharest NATO summit of April 2008 when a MAP (Membership Action Plan - in other words, a roadmap for membership) for both Georgia and Ukraine was on the agenda.

    Russia lobbied hard against this, and both Germany and France were of the opinion that to pursue this matter would be premature. (Then, a number of other events took place - the Russian-Georgian conflict of August 2008, the world economic crash after September 2008, and things had changed.).

    Thus, I don't see NATO membership on the agenda for those countries at any time in the future.

    However, the Baltic states are members of both the EU and of NATO. Besides, the manner of their membership of the old USSR was a matter of no small disagreement, and was contested by significant numbers of the host populations; there is no desire for membership of any sort of union with Russia, and I don't see it happening.



    Firstly, I would suggest that insult is no substitute for reasoned argument.

    And yes, it does matter. It matters hugely.

    There is a significant difference between a state which is in both NATO and the EU, a state moreover, where boundaries are not contested, and one which is not.

    I'd go further. The western recognition of Kosovo in February 2008 (which Russia - rightly - vehemently opposed) was the first time since the Second World War that a sovereign (and Serbia was sovereign), stable (and Serbia was stable by 2008), functioning State, which was also a functioning democracy (both of which, again, Serbia had become by 2008) was dismembered against its will and wishes. That was a principle we (by which 'we', I mean, the west), tampered with at our peril. We handed that card to the Russians to play, and they have played it - on occasion, against us - since then.

    While I hold no brief for Mr Putin, I think it salient to be mindful of the emotions which govern Russia and Russian policy in this matter.

    For example, the state which is modern Russia grew out of a country that used to be known as Kievan Rus, (where a part of what is modern Ukraine lies); there is also the response to the belief that a western promise had been given (doubtless emphasised and further whipped up in the domestic Russian media) that NATO would not expand much further eastwards after the unification of Germany.

    However, the murder of Mr Nemtsov - a genuinely impressive individual, an experienced and extraordinarily gifted political leader, (he served as Deputy Prime Minister under Boris Yeltsin) and a very courageous human being - is an utter tragedy and robs Russia of yet another individual who subscribed to the idea of the rule of law, a man who was a voice of reason and classical liberal - and more importantly - democratic - values.

     
  22. kds1 Suspended

    kds1

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    #47
    Sorry, that was a typo, and I am goong back and editing it now. Putin has troops right now on the ground in UKRAINE.

    You are really really Gullible. Putin is not sincere. Pro Russian forces in Ukraine are withdrawing? It's theatre!

    The Netherlands is a member of NATO. Be prepared to live up to your side of the bargain if he starts incursions into the Baltics. And do please try to remember what happened the last tim Europe appeased a maniac intent on territorial expansion.
     
  23. Scepticalscribe macrumors Westmere

    Scepticalscribe

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    #48
    Agreed.

    And this is less about restoring the old Soviet Union, than issues of 'respect' and being seen to be consulted over possible 'spheres of influence'.

    Mr Putin couldn't restore the old USSR - the post Soviet states won't have it; however, they cannot ignore the existence of Russia.

    However much proxy wars may be conducted in the east of the country, I agree with Happybunny, that Europe will not go to actual formal war over the Ukraine.
     
  24. Happybunny macrumors 68000

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    #49
    I bow to your expertise in the area of the Balkans.

    I always love how the ones that clamour most for war are always the ones who will NOT be doing the fighting.
     
  25. kds1 Suspended

    kds1

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    #50
    He can't ever bring back the USSR (well, having said that, I should never say never) but he will do all he can if allowed to reappropriate as much territory as the west allows him to. Make no mistake.
     

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