Russians Shelling Eastern Ukraine

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by G51989, Jul 27, 2014.

  1. G51989 macrumors 68030

    G51989

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    #1
    http://time.com/3042640/satellite-russian-ukraine-shelling/

    This does not really surprise me.

    Should anything be done about this?

    And if so? What?

    My personal thought is that Russia will invade and Annex east Ukraine at some point, I think everyone sees it coming.
     
  2. iBlazed macrumors 68000

    iBlazed

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    #2
    No. Not our problem. This is the perfect opportunity for the US to mind our own goddamn business for once in our lives.
     
  3. G51989 thread starter macrumors 68030

    G51989

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    #3
    Lets be honest, the chickenhawks on the right will want to start something.

    And American Military industrial complex is probably drooling at the idea of more increased defense budgets.
     
  4. Mackan macrumors 65816

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    #4
    Yes, it's unfortunately coming. The best Europe can do is to reduce it's dependency from Russia, and build up its military power, because there's no telling what limits a lowlife like Putin has. He gladly assists in shooting down commercial airliners, as well.
     
  5. G51989 thread starter macrumors 68030

    G51989

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    #5
    The EU can run over Russia if it needs to, as a whole the EU has a much stronger military. assuming nuclear weapons don't exist. But they do, major war with Russia won't happen.

    Putin is probably one of the most effective leaders seen in a very very very long time, the people in Russia generally like him as well, he isn't going anywhere.

    Low life? Not the word.

    Physcopath? Crazy? Calculating? The new Czar?

    Better words.

    Even Putin, I don't think he gave an order to shoot down the airliner, I think that was rebels not knowing how to use a SAM system.
     
  6. zioxide macrumors 603

    zioxide

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    #6
    Europe needs to grow some balls, stand up for themselves, and stop relying on the US for everything.
     
  7. G51989 thread starter macrumors 68030

    G51989

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    #7
    In what way do they depend on the US? Western Europe as a whole has the second strongest military in the world. Easily capable of taking down any Russian attack assuming it didn't go nuclear.
     
  8. Mackan macrumors 65816

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    #8
    He may not have given the order, but sure he assisted by providing that missile system to the rebels, probably educating them as well. There's enough evidence out there, and most people with a brain can draw their conclusions of what's going on. Unless one watch Russian state controlled media of course...
     
  9. G51989 thread starter macrumors 68030

    G51989

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    #9
    I can see its going on.

    I personally don't see this as being any different than times in history the US has supported rebels in other countries to support their own goals.
     
  10. quagmire macrumors 603

    quagmire

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    #10
    I could see Russia( or at least some kind of assistance from either current or former Russian troops) training them, but it's not inconceivable that the separatists acquired the BUK system from one of the Ukrainian armories they have seized.
     
  11. Happybunny macrumors 68000

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    #11
    I wonder where that rightful indignation was when the US shoots down a passenger jet and kills 300 people.

    Fury and frustration still mount over the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, and justly so. But before accusing Russian President Vladimir Putin of war crimes or dismissing the entire episode as a tragic fluke, it’s worth looking back at another doomed passenger plane—Iran Air Flight 655—shot down on July 3, 1988, not by some scruffy rebel on contested soil but by a U.S. Navy captain in command of an Aegis-class cruiser called the Vincennes.




    A quarter-century later, the Vincennes is almost completely forgotten, but it still ranks as the world’s seventh deadliest air disaster (Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 is the sixth) and one of the Pentagon’s most inexcusable disgraces.

    In several ways, the two calamities are similar. The Malaysian Boeing 777 wandered into a messy civil war in eastern Ukraine, near the Russian border; the Iranian Airbus A300 wandered into a naval skirmish—one of many clashes in the ongoing “Tanker War” (another forgotten conflict)—in the Strait of Hormuz. The likely pro-Russia rebel thought that he was shooting at a Ukrainian military-transport plane; the U.S. Navy captain, Will Rogers III, mistook the Airbus for an F-14 fighter jet. The Russian SA-11 surface-to-air missile that downed the Malaysian plane killed 298 passengers, including 80 children; the American SM-2 surface-to-air missile that downed the Iranian plane killed 290 passengers, including 66 children. After last week’s incident, Russian officials told various lies to cover up their culpability and blamed the Ukrainian government; after the 1988 incident, American officials told various lies and blamed the Iranian pilot. Not until eight years later did the U.S. government compensate the victims’ families, and even then expressed “deep regret,” not an apology.


    As the Boston Globe’s defense correspondent at the time, I reported on the Vincennes shoot-down, and I have gone back over my clips, chronicling the official lies and misstatements as they unraveled. Here’s the truly dismaying part of the story. On Aug. 19, 1988, nearly seven weeks after the event, the Pentagon issued a 53-page report on the incident. Though the text didn’t say so directly, it found that nearly all the initial details about the shoot-down—the “facts” that senior officials cited to put all the blame on Iran Air’s pilot—were wrong. And yet the August report still concluded that the captain and all the other Vincennes officers acted properly.

    For example, on July 3, at the first Pentagon press conference on the incident, Adm. William Crowe, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said that the Iranian plane had been flying at 9,000 feet and descending at a “high speed” of 450 knots, “headed directly” for the Vincennes. In fact, however, the Aug. 19 report—written by Rear Adm. William Fogarty of U.S. Central Command—concluded (from computer tapes found inside the ship’s combat information center) that the plane was “ascending through 12,000 feet” at the much slower speed of 380 knots. “At no time” did the Airbus “actually descend in altitude,” the report stated.

    When I pointed out this discrepancy at the press conference where the report was handed out, Secretary of Defense Frank Carlucci waved me away and said, “It’s really questionable whether a different reading would have affected the judgment” to shoot down the plane. (I still find this astonishing.)

    There were other equally disturbing discrepancies between Crowe’s July 3 press conference (which struck me as suspicious even at the time) and Fogarty’s Aug. 19 report. Crowe had said the plane was flying “outside the prescribed commercial air route”; the report said it was flying “within the established air route.” Crowe had said the plane’s transponder was “squawking” a code over the “Mode 2” military channel; the report stated that it was squawking over the “Mode 3” civilian channel. Crowe had said the Vincennes issued several warnings; the report confirmed this, but noted, “Due to heavy pilot workload during take-off and climb-out, and the requirement to communicate with” two air traffic control centers, the pilot “probably was not monitoring” the international air-distress channel.

    Adm. George B. Crist, head of U.S. Central Command, issued a “non-punitive letter of censure” to the ship’s anti–air warfare officer, but Secretary of Defense Carlucci withdrew the letter. Not only that, but two years later, Capt. Rogers was issued the Legion of Merit “for exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of outstanding service” as the Vincennes’ commander “from April 1987 to May 1989.”

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...ir_flight_655_the_united_states_tried_to.html

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    But of course this is the same Government that told the world back in 2003 that Iraq had WMD, and then invaded thousands died all because of a LIE.

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    Like the US subverted the NATO treaty to get European units to be stationed in Afghanistan.
     
  12. Scepticalscribe Contributor

    Scepticalscribe

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    #12

    A superb, balanced, informed, intelligent, well-argued and beautifully written post. Thank you.
     
  13. rdowns macrumors Penryn

    rdowns

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    #13

    He didn't write it. It's from Slate.
     
  14. jb1280 macrumors 6502a

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    #14
    There are a couple things to consider.

    The territorial aggrandizement that has been occurring in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine following the collapse of the Yanukovych government is against international law. It’s a catastrophe for Ukraine and its people. That said, none of this should be surprising. Ukraine has occupied a special historical place in Europe for centuries and following the collapse of the Soviet Union it was not clear what latitude Ukraine would have in the international system. In theory, any state should be able to pursue relations with whatever partner they choose. In reality, however, geography and spheres of influence exist. Simply, Ukraine has not been successful in navigating the region they inhabit and the EU/US have not been helpful.

    There will be no agreement between the US/EU and Russia over the situation in Ukraine because there is no shared agreement on the events that occurred. The US/EU perceived the overthrow of the Yanukovych government has a reflection of the Ukrainian people. The Russians perceived it as a the overthrow of a democratically elected President. The problem is that both are true depending on your own perception.

    The US has minimal influence in the region. The EU has a bit more influence. Russia, however, will do what it will as it pertains to Ukraine. It’s devastating for Ukrainians and the state is looking as close to a failed state as they come. That said, it’s also a strategic disaster for Russia. An important question is whether or not it’s in Russia’s interests to have ethnic Russians with positive attitudes toward Russia residing in the near abroad or having disloyal non-Russians residing within the Russian Federation. Through the annexation of Crimea and perhaps parts of Eastern Ukraine will only make Russia more vulnerable in the longterm. First, through failed efforts to legitimately obtain recognition of these border changes. Second, through attempting to assimilate these populations into the Russian state.

    I don’t think it’s a foregone conclusion that Russia will annex eastern Ukraine. If that was the clear agenda, it would have taken place months ago. It’s clear that a pro-Western Ukraine will emerge over the course of a generation. The whole thing is tragic, but nobody should be surprised this happened. It’s a combination of a kleptocracy in Ukraine unable to provide for the political, economic, and social ambitions of a complicated Ukrainian state; a Russian state attempting to navigate a post-Soviet identity crisis; and Western hubris attempting to build upon the geopolitical changes that occurred from 1991-2004.
     
  15. Mackan macrumors 65816

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    #15
    These discussions often end up with U.S being compared against country "x" that has just done something terrible. I tend not to do that, since it takes away focus from what is just happening, and somehow seeks to justify country "x" behaviour.

    But yes, it's good to be reminded. People have to make up their own educated mind regarding who they want to support, in the end.
     
  16. Scepticalscribe Contributor

    Scepticalscribe

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    #16

    Fair enough - but I assume that by posting it Happybunny is indicating agreement with the sentiments expressed and supporting this with reference to a source.

    However, as it is a source I was not aware of - which discussed this matter in commendable detail - I still thank him for posting it, and you for furnishing further clarity.

     
  17. VulchR macrumors 68020

    VulchR

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    #17
    I am just waiting for the Ukrainian surprise attack in Crimea.
     
  18. stylinexpat macrumors 6502a

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    #18
    If the US and UN applied the same sanctions on the Israelis as they did the Russians, would it be considered anti-Semitic? Where did more people die in, Ukraine,Crimea or Palestine? Russia heads over towards Ukraine and Crimea and the world rages along with a big list of sanctions but Israel does he same with Palestine and no sanctions? What's up with the hypocrisy these days?
     
  19. Happybunny macrumors 68000

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    #19
    If that happened, it would dramatically change the whole situation, it would be a direct confrontation between the Russian Federation and Ukraine. This would not just be a small side show, but as Putin has put his whole political future on the out come of a Russian Krim this would be a fight to the death. The Krim does unite all Russian people even Putin rivals and opponents, to the average Russian in the street the Krim is Russian since 1700's.

    Since the takeover in May it's now Russian Regular troops stationed in the camps.
     
  20. jkcerda macrumors 6502

    jkcerda

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    #20
    The left has just as many chicken hawks, they simply claim they are not, look at Obama taking on Libya & trying to mess with Syria.
     
  21. G51989 thread starter macrumors 68030

    G51989

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    #21
    That would be the end of Ukraine.
     
  22. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #22
    The idea of Russia shooting at Ukraine ignores the ancient "Cui bono?" It is against any benefit to Russia or Putin.

    Ukraine has Buks; so does Russia--who supplies them here, there and yonder--and so do the Separatists of Ukraine.

    Odds are that the MH17 shoot-down was an accident due to mis-identification by the Separatists. A lesser possibility is that of a false flag, a Reichstag Fire sort of deal by the Ukies.

    Regardless, the shoot-down would not have occurred but for the US meddling, the expenditure of five billion dollars to subvert the Ukraine government--which ended up with the present unelected ruling body controlled by ultra-right-wing Neo-Nazi oligarchs.
     
  23. Huntn macrumors G5

    Huntn

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    #23
    I listened to President Obama's press conference (today) on Russia/Ukraine and I'm very happy he is working with the EU with more sanctions. I don't want to see us going to war over this. If anyone, it's Europe's turn...
     
  24. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #24
    It's nobody's "turn", but, as Desertrat said above, this is a conflict fomented by US meddling, subverting a democratically-elected government for their own geopolitical ends. We will all be picking up the pieces for decades to come. Why is no thought ever given to what happens after these propaganda-driven interventions?
     
  25. jnpy!$4g3cwk macrumors 65816

    jnpy!$4g3cwk

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    #25
    I'm sorry. I'm confused. Russian surrogates (mistakenly I believe) shoot down a civilian transport (that they thought was a military transport), and, you are blaming the U.S.?

    Russia directly shells Ukraine, and, you blame the U.S.? I just don't follow your logic.
     

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