Sam Harris, Ben Affleck, Bill Maher, and Islam

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by FrankieTDouglas, Oct 9, 2014.

  1. FrankieTDouglas macrumors 65816

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    #1
    http://www.latimes.com/opinion/opinion-la/la-ol-bill-maher-ben-affleck-islam-20141008-story.html

    I find it odd that despite all of the human rights violations that are done in the name of Islam TODAY, people who disagree with such actions, still defend the faith. In Affleck's case, with nearly uncontrollable body language. It's even more ironic when the red herring argument juxtaposes current Islam against Christianity of hundreds of years ago.

    As it was pointed out by another member of the panel, moderate Muslims are speaking out now (fantastic!) despite the risk of retaliation for doing so. But what no one pointed out during the debate (although Harris later addressed this issue on his website), this should be an indicator that something is messed up in your chosen religious association.
     
  2. Sydde macrumors 68020

    Sydde

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    #2
    Islam has the same basic problem as all the others. The mullahs, the preachers, the rabbis, the swamis, all the religious leaders need to be gelded. It is one thing to be an adherent, adherents are not so much the troublemakers, it is the clerics and the charismatics we need to get rid of.
     
  3. aaronvan Suspended

    aaronvan

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    #3
    Western liberals fundamentally refuse to process the topic of Islamic theocracy. Thus, they are insulated from uncomfortable truths such as Islam's denigration and oppression of women.

    The Western liberal considers the Qu'ran far more seminal than the entire canon of English literature and Christopher Columbus a greater scoundrel than the Islamic State.
     
  4. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #4
    Islam has the problem of being the last one to the table when it comes to embracing equal civil rights.

    All the rest of us at the table get to shake our heads in dismay over the shameful state of Islam, despite the fact that it was only a short time ago that we were doing virtually the same thing.

    But oh how satisfying it is to shake our heads in shame.

    Bad Islam. Bad, bad Islam.
     
  5. aaronvan Suspended

    aaronvan

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    #5
    I hope you would shake your head over someone holding pre-Civil War views.

    Why then scorn those who shake their heads over someone holding pre-11th Century views?
     
  6. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #6
    Muslims won't magically disappear or mold themselves to our desires.

    The only alternative is to engage them peacefully, and patiently.

    Over time, we'll develop a lasting trust.

    Treating them as the enemy will only prolong that process.
     
  7. MacNut macrumors Core

    MacNut

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    #7
    I didn't know that Muslims as a whole were the enemy. Just those crack pots that think it's their way or the highway and everyone else must be killed.

    The problem is not the Muslim people, but the zealots that are living in the stone ages.
     
  8. Renzatic Suspended

    Renzatic

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    #8
    Yeah, and the Western conservative loves sacrificing babies to appease their one true god: Quetzalcoatl.

    See that? It's a blanket statement. It didn't really do anything except make me look ignorant and close-minded, right?

    Seriously, the Qu'ran doesn't factor into your average Western liberal's line of thought. Yeah, there probably are a few who respect it, either for religious reasons, or its historical value, but I seriously doubt the belief that it's the greatest work of literature civilization has ever produced is an opinion held by even a fraction of a fractional minority of liberals.

    Also, Christopher Columbus was kind of a bastard.
     
  9. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #9
    Completely agree. But right now we still need to build trust in order to isolate and eradicate that violent, radical faction.
     
  10. MacNut macrumors Core

    MacNut

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    #10
    How do you do that when most of these countries follow Shira law.
     
  11. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #11
    Patiently.

    You know a better way?
     
  12. iBlazed macrumors 68000

    iBlazed

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    #13
    Who's Shira? Is that like Megan's law?
     
  13. FrankieTDouglas thread starter macrumors 65816

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    #14
    Do you also extend this type of trust thinking to mainstream, Western religions? Did you argue for this when the Duck Dynasty controversy was happening (which was waaaaaaaaayyyyy below the level of violence or etc).
     
  14. bradl macrumors 68040

    bradl

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    #15
    And I note how you and most 'Christians' are completely silent on the subject of the plundering and mutilations in the name of Christianity performed by Columbus, Cortez, and Pizzaro.

    I also note the complete silence of most 'Christians' are completely silent on the subject of the killings and what could be termed as 'genocide' and indoctrination of the native tribes to Christianity during the 19th Century in the USA.

    I also happen to note the complete silence of most 'Christians' when it came to the vilification and stereotyping of anyone who claim the Muslim faith after 9/11/2001.

    Did you extend that type of trust to those people?

    If not, Pot/Kettle/Black. Don't try to paint Christians as victims, because they certainly are not.

    BL.
     
  15. FrankieTDouglas thread starter macrumors 65816

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    #16
    Funny you would label me with a religious title, considering I don't follow any of them.

    Interesting, also, that 2/3 of your Christian references refer to acts committed over a hundred years ago. **** was horrible. Had I been alive during the time before my grandparents, I'd be saying the same things about that, then. But here in the now, we have aggressive decapitating slaughter within the past month. If you want to cite religious violence as reason to denounce a religion, here's the chance for you, to spite the religious zealots from 1492. And if there's Christian silence since 9/11, maybe folks aren't so quick to rush and defend a religion that was SPECIFICALLY CITED as the rallying cry behind why the acts were carried out.
     
  16. impulse462 macrumors 68000

    impulse462

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    #17
    Just don't understand how people like to make blanketing statements about other people based on their religion. Why not just blame the people who commit these awful acts, because THEY committed them, not because they say its based off religion.

    Furthermore, all this talk of "the moderate muslims" or the "normal everyday muslims" should come out and condemn the terrorists acts is dumb. It helps their case, but why should they even be bothered? If someone of my own skin color, religion, ethnicity, or nationality commits acts of terrorism, why should I feel obligated to condemn the actions? It has nothing to do with me, so why anyone should try to blame me for other peoples actions, or stereotype me just shows how low that persons intelligence really is.
     
  17. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #18
    How exactly does Islam hold pre-11th century views?

    That's because its true. Christopher Columbus was a **** - http://theoatmeal.com/comics/columbus_day.

    Do I need to point out the catholic church pedophile scandal? Or their anti-condom campaign which caused AIDs to be spread more easily? Or Christianity's rampant sexism?

    Look I'm perfectly happy to accept that a small number of Muslim countries (such as Saudi Arabia) treat their women terribly, but the world's largest muslim country by population is Indonesia and it treats women fine. Bangladesh also has a lot of muslims and it has had two female prime ministers, India is also up their and it doesn't treat its women particularly well, but then neither do the Hindu's - I don't think there is any difference between the religions.

    The most populous muslim country where women are actually treated notably badly is Pakistan. Then there's Iran which treats women pretty badly, but on the other hand half its Maths graduates are women, which is a rate far above ours, so maybe those preconceptions are wrong.

    There is certainly a problem of Jihad in Islam, I would say that is mostly down to muslims having traditionally integrated well into different cultures, but still rubbing up against a series of great powers of Europe, China, India, Russia and Israel. All of them have, to greater and lesser degrees, had issues with their muslim communities, but part of that is the ease with which Jihadi's can travel between those different regions.
     
  18. Huntn macrumors P6

    Huntn

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    #19
    There are:
    Good Christians, bad Christians;
    Good Muslims, bad Muslims;
    Good Atheists, bad Atheists.

    I did not see this episode of Real Time, but it sounds like Maher was criticizing the bad Muslims and fundamentalist extremism. I think that all extremism in views especially religious views is a terrible characteristic of some human beings. If he was making a blanket case against all Muslims, probably Affleck's point, then Maher screwed up.
     
  19. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #20
    as far as I understand Maher was being overly broad.
     
  20. FrankieTDouglas thread starter macrumors 65816

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    #21
    Did either of you watch the debate?
     
  21. Populism macrumors regular

    Populism

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    #22
    I am sincerely interested.

    What specifically does engaging extremist Muslims peacefully and patiently look like? Where exactly does it start? With what action?
     
  22. giantfan1224 macrumors 6502a

    giantfan1224

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    #23
    You should watch it. I've felt dirty ever since for actually agreeing with Maher for once. Never thought that day would come. In my opinion, Affleck comes off as a gigantic ass, especially in his first 30 seconds.
     
  23. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #24
    I'm not suggesting patience for the extremists.

    But we need to gain the trusts of Islamic nations so they will go after the extremist elements within their own borders.

    IMO, it starts by us demonstrating our ability and desire to work with Muslim nations peacefully, by respecting their sovereignty and allowing the their people to choose their destiny without the threat of the U.S. seeking to control it.
     
  24. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #25
    I saw Reza Aslans commentary on Facebook. He seems pretty well sensible - and his view was that Maher was being overly broad.
     

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