Samsung 850 EVO & Mac Pro 4,1 - SATA II? TRIM or NOT?

Discussion in 'Mac Pro' started by Vudo2, Feb 21, 2017.

  1. Vudo2 macrumors newbie

    Vudo2

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    Ohio
    #1
    I have a Mac Pro 4,1 (early 2009) and wish to install El Capitan v10.11.6 as a fresh new OS on a Samsung 850 EVO - 1TB.

    AS expected I have read allot about this particular drive having issues with TRIM support under Mac OS not to mention that the interface on the Mac Pro 4,1 is SATA II and I see that only SATA III supports "queued TRIM Commands". Of which I have not a dam clue WTF this means but am concerned of how any of this may effect TRIM on the drive under Mac OS ether by HOW TRIM is enabled or if it SHOULD BE enabled under these conditions at all / also vs. firmware updating the SDD and vs. NOT firmware updating the SSD in comparison conditions.

    Here are all my questions for this setup and if anyone has any direct experience with this:

    1. Should the Samsung 850 EVO be firmware updated prior to installation? This would require connecting the drive via USB to an existing Windows machine with the Samsung Magician software installed to SEE if any firmware updates are available since Samsung gives NO firmware info on this drive anywhere
    on their download website and only refer you to install the Magician Software to service and maintain the drive - yet its a Mac compatible drive as per Samsung with no Magician software for Mac OS - Sweet Bastards!! :mad:

    2. Should TRIM be enabled (even though it is being installed on a Mac SATA II interface) and if so what is the best way to do it....should it be enabled via the terminal trimforce command in El Capi or should I actually download and install Disk Sensei - $20.00?
    Cindori states that their software is a "better and safer way" to enable TRIM in El Capi instead of using the trimforce command...is this true? Read the comments here on their website: Using Disk Sense.

    If you enable the trimforce command in El Capi should something else be done first so it actually "Sets" properly - like disable SIP or something else security related?

    If anyone has vetted out best performance and reliability of this SSD on a SATA II interface (with & without TRIM enabled in OS / various ways to enable TRIM / firmware updated / firmware NOT updated) your comments and findings would be highly appreciated.

    Thanks allot in advance!
     
  2. keysofanxiety macrumors G3

    keysofanxiety

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2011
    #2
    1) Either or; your discretion entirely. I've applied firmware updates before installation. Other times I've done them after, sometimes even months with the OS/applications being installed on it (just backup data if you were to do this)

    2) sudo trimforce enable in Terminal. Nothing else required, no need to disable SIP. Don't bother with an application to do it for you.

    3) I have the same SSD with no issues before/after TRIM or before/after firmware update. The only difference SATA II will make is reduced I/O due to the 3Gb/s interface, rather than 6Gb/s in SATA III.
     
  3. h9826790 macrumors G4

    h9826790

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    #3
    1) The Firmware info is avail in System Information.
    Screen Shot 2017-02-22 at 02.28.37 copy.jpg
    You can cross check if the firmware match the latest one on Samsung website. If not, than you can download the ISO file and update the firmware on your Mac. You don't need any Windows / PC / USB to do that.

    2) I don't know why other method will be more safe if you can do it by just a single native terminal command. I use that to activate TRIM on my SSD anyway, everything works flawless.
     
  4. Vudo2 thread starter macrumors newbie

    Vudo2

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    #4
    I checked the Samsung website for this...and as stated there is NO firmware update posted as a separate file nor any reference of any firmware update or reversion number for the Samsung 850 EVO...your setup does shows the 840 Evo...firmware files are available for download for that model on the website and you are showing the proper latest version for your drive (EXT0DB6Q)...apparently owners of the 850 EVO are out-of-luck for any posted firmware files. The latest version for the 850 EVO (as per Samsung) should be EXT02B6Q.

    I called Samsung today and they said you DO need to firmware update via the Magician software through a Windows based machine. Maybe in the future the company will release something similar for the Mac OS.

    Also...Samsung did state to me that they run a Mac Book Pro (mid 2010) in their call center that has a Samsung 850 EVO, installed (approx 1 year) - details as follows (and mind you this is assuming I was getting the correct and true info from the tech I spoke too / Benny):

    - Originally formatted to run OSX El Capitan
    - Was supposedly flashed on Windows machine to latest firmware EXT02B6Q
    - Upgraded to OSX Sierra
    - TRIM implemented via trimforce command

    Was said to run with no performance issues they know of.
    --- Post Merged, Feb 21, 2017 ---
    Thanks keysofanxiety.

    My plan is to install Magician on a Windows 7 laptop...check the firmware and update if required then format and install El Capi with the Mac. Based on your info I will also enable TRIM via the trimforce command...although I will admit the Disk Sensei application does seem to have some benefits for keeping tabs on the SSD...just not sure if I want to shell another $20 as that this whole upgrade process continues to be a nickel-and-dime PIMA.
     
  5. h9826790 macrumors G4

    h9826790

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    #5
    Oh, didn't realise that Samsung website include 850 Pro but not the 850 Evo's firmware. Sorry about that.

    Anyway, your 850 Evo is not up to date now? I am quite surprise that Samsung intentionally leave 850 Evo out of luck.

    Magician may require you format the SSD to NTFS in order to work properly. Even though I am sure you will backup the whole SSD before you do the firmware upgrade, just better be prepare that extra work may be required.
     
  6. Vudo2, Feb 21, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2017

    Vudo2 thread starter macrumors newbie

    Vudo2

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    #6
    Thanks h9826790. Right now the drive is brand new so I'm just getting started. :)
     
  7. h9826790 macrumors G4

    h9826790

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    #7
    I suspect there is no firmware update for 850 Evo yet, that's why only 850 Evo is left out in the webpage.

    Anyway, I am sure you will find out soon.
     
  8. AidenShaw macrumors P6

    AidenShaw

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    #8
    Mine has a different firmware which Magician claims is up-to-date....

    850.jpg
     
  9. Vudo2, Feb 22, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2017

    Vudo2 thread starter macrumors newbie

    Vudo2

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    #9
    Interesting AidenShaw...i figured I was getting the run-around from Samsung and once again! I have had issues with misinformation and pure run-around from them before on other products and I figure its just commonplace for them to just get through tech issues and hope the customer is pacified and not truly satisfied with proper and sufficient support.

    I actually went through the entire hassle of trying to update my drive, via SATA to USB cable on a Windows 7 machine and found out I was unable too. Called Samsung again and spoke to a different tech (Richard?) who informed me that firmware updates would NOT be possible via a USB connection....the Magician software (was using latest downloaded v5.0) really is useless for any functions via this means of connection - drive serial let alone any firmware info couldn't even verify in software. Also....I was specifically informed that any model manufactured after May of 2016 would have the firmware version of EXT02B6Q. I was also informed this was the absolute latest version of the firmware so mine was up to date based on my manufacture date of Nov, 2016 and no downloadable (ISOs) firmware updates have been published because even if older firmwares were installed on earlier models they would not need to be updated to the latest versions coming on newer manufactured models...mmmmm.....WHY would they even change the firmware AT ALL if its not necessary and yet still not allow older model owner's to update?

    What was your manufacture date?

    Bottom line is Samsung will do whatever they want and they could careless about MAC users for their products or any users for that matter...their tech support from my past experience on other products (home consumer) has never proven any dedication or concern for issues that arise...they more-or-less have always just tried to blow it off and give you a run-around, and again this is just my experience so am venting :mad:. I even bought an ON SALE yet rather expensive Samsung TV (6000 series) over the holidays and later found out they actually do mini advertisements in the corner of the screen (WHILE WATCHING TV CONTENT). I can't even turn this function off nor have any idea how if its even possible...are you kidding me??? When I discovered this I was blown away...you can read about their unethical practices regarding this in several articles online.

    Here is an example from the Verge: Samsung Smart TV Ads
    And here is one from Extreme Tech: Samsung Forces Users To See Ads

    To be honest I simply do not like Samsung..I don't care if they have the best published SSD specs online or how "popular" their other products are....I do not like their attitude and I don't like their business practices...I'm making an effort from here on out to steer clear of their products when and I can. I should of just bought a Crucial SSD and saved myself some money...I was lured by effective media hype - what they ARE good at apparently and where their "highest efforts concerning the consumer" are targeted. JMO

    UPDATE: Just called Samsung again and spoke to another rep (Ricky) who said the latest firmware version actually IS: EMT02B6Q

    He said I was told the version number: EXT02B6Q is actually the latest firmware for the 840 EVO.

    Lets see...4 calls in 2 days....so are we right now?
     
  10. h9826790 macrumors G4

    h9826790

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    #10
    If both staff told you the same story. I suspect even the info in their system is wrong. Guess what? Quite a lot of those CS guys has zero technical knowledge, but just trained to read the computer's info. If the info there is wrong, they will keep telling you the wrong stuff.

    e.g. It sounds the firmware version should be EMTxxx but not EXTxxx. And firmware update can only be done via native SATA port (not even PCIe SATA card).

    Even though I could be totally wrong. I still suspect that there is no firmware update for 80Evo so far, that's why no ISO avail on the webpage.
     
  11. Vudo2 thread starter macrumors newbie

    Vudo2

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    #11
    Yep...understood. And yes...this could be the case that and am counting on the fact that you are right...going with the idea that the current firmware is the latest and no update is required for now. Going to go ahead and install sometime next week if my schedule allows.
     
  12. AidenShaw macrumors P6

    AidenShaw

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    #12
    If it's a consumer drive and the OS supports TRIM - then definitely.

    If it's an enterprise drive, not so important.

    How do you tell a consumer drive from an enterprise drive - usually by capacity. A consumer drive will be 500 GB or 512 GB. An enterprise drive probably something like 400 GB.

    All of them have will have 512 GiB of flash, but the enterprise drive will forcibly dedicate over 100 GB of space to help the garbage collector. (Useful for enterprise drives because they're often used with RAID controllers that don't support TRIM.)

    I can't imagine any scenario where you would not enable TRIM if your OS properly supports it.
     
  13. OGNerd macrumors regular

    OGNerd

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2015
    #13

    I have a 2,1 running El Capitan from an 1TB Samsung 850 Evo in a PCIe slot adapter (EMT01B6Q firmware), and TRIM enabled via "trimforce". There are no significant performance improvements (other than a slight improvement in boot time) over a 1TB hybrid drive on the SATA II interface from which I run Yosemite and Mavericks. Data transfer rates top out at ~200 MB/sec read/write on both the SSD and hybrid drives vs ~110MB/sec on a standard HD attached to the SATA II interface.
     
  14. Ntac macrumors newbie

    Ntac

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    Feb 18, 2018
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    USA
    #14
    I just installed two drives last night...The 850 EVO & the 860 EVO. I uploaded the firmware prior to install , which is the same for the 850 & 860...Firmware version on both is stated as
    EMT03B6Q and the 860 is RVT01B6Q. Neither here nor there...Just saw this was a year old...Still trying to get used to being in 2018! :)
     
  15. bsbeamer macrumors 65816

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    #15
  16. h9826790 macrumors G4

    h9826790

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    #16
    I did that firmware update at least twice (I own a 840 Evo at the pretty early stage, and there was few firmware updates due to the slow reading bug). From memory, the update wasn't that hard. Just burn the disk, boot from it, and follow exact instruction from Samsung. However, for 840 Evo, there may be a process to "re-activate" the "slowed cell", that can take a long time to finish (few hours may be). But if without that, the pure firmware update process is quick.

    I did that with a Mac EFI GPU, I am not sure if the non flashed card can display anything in DOS.

    Anyway, in my case, the system info always correctly shows the SSD firmware version.
    Screen Shot 2018-02-20 at 03.13.42 copy.jpg
     
  17. bsbeamer macrumors 65816

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    Sep 19, 2012
    #17
    Yes, you need the EFI GPU to update and need to create the disc installer. The 840's I have updated fine. The 850's took a bit more "work". Still have to update two or three of them in the next few weeks. Eventually figured out removing all drives and putting the drive you want to update/upgrade into drive sled #1 made this process go a lot smoother with the drive being found quickly rather than trying a few times before it shows for the updater.
     
  18. h9826790 macrumors G4

    h9826790

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    #18
    I did the update with the SSD plugged into the optical bay. IMO, that's the easiest way.
     
  19. balan macrumors newbie

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    Oct 8, 2018
    #19
    Hello there, ¿so, how was going with high Sierra your SSD Samsung EVO 840 1TB with latest firmware?

    could you activate the trim?

    I have exactly same SSD, but right now I can't use it on Mojave and neither other MacOS that don't be "El Capitan" (with this the SSD write speed is just 240MB/s my data connector is actually SATA III, because is Pro Mid 2012, and is actually with a Corsair Neutron XTI 960GB and works with 480 MB/s write speed and 505 MB/s read right on Mojave and with NO TRIM activated because get slower), and actually updated the firmware to latest version.

    Can you talk about the SSD EVO 840 Samsung performance on your Mac please?, I'm really desperate with this situation because actually if I use the SSD Samsung EVO 840 1TB with Mojave... really gets terrible performance, because just writes to 40 or 80MB/s and reads to 505MB/s.

    please if you can tell to me how could you use your SSD on Mac with TRIM I would really appreciate it
     
  20. W1SS macrumors regular

    W1SS

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2013
    #20
    Yes you can.

    Open terminal and run:

    Code:
    sudo trimforce enable
    Enter your password, and read the disclaimer then select Y for Yes.

    Trim should be enabled after the reboot.
     
  21. balan macrumors newbie

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    Oct 8, 2018
    #21
    Year, of course is possible using trim force, I’ve already done, but the problem here is when I activate it the performance gets even worse
     
  22. W1SS macrumors regular

    W1SS

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    Aug 20, 2013
    #22
    That's strange. From what you posted, it has the latest firmware? If so, then you should backup your data on it then:

    1. Use S.M.A.R.T to read drive stats - see if it is failing then
    2. Either give it time for trimming to work before using it or
    3. Manually trimming it by booting into Recovery and using First Aid under Disk Utility or
    4. Remove all drives except your 840, download partedmagic, create bootable usb from iso using UNetBootin, boot from the USB, then go to Disk options and select ATA Secure Erase or something similar to that. This will wipe your SSD back to factory state (turns all cells to 0) but be warned, if your SSD is heavily used and is reaching its TBW limits, this command/procedure could kill the drive.

    I have a 840 pro drive 512GB that came with my recent mac pro purchase, has the latest firmware and does not exhibit this degradation with trim enabled.
     
  23. tsialex macrumors 68000

    tsialex

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    #23
    It’s a 840EVO problem, read anandtech articles about the problem.
     
  24. W1SS macrumors regular

    W1SS

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    Aug 20, 2013
    #24
    Just did, thanks. So the latest Samsung firmware for the 840 Evo should fix this issue. If it was me, I would update to the latest firmware then carry out an ATA secure erase. If after this, the drive is still problematic I would just retire it or use it for less important things.
     
  25. h9826790 macrumors G4

    h9826790

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    #25
    AFAIK, that 840 Evo problem only affect read speed on old files (more than 3 months old), but not write speed. So, I don't think his problem is the 840 Evo's problem.

    Also that issue was fixed with the latest firmware few years back. At this this is true on my 840 Evo.

    TBH, I really don't know how this SSD perform in Mojave. I upgraded my cMP's boot drive to a 2TB MX500. And let the 1TB 840 Evo work inside my Hackintosh. Since it's a Windows gaming drive now, can't test its Mojave performance.

    However, if TRIM is disabled, I won't be too surprised you only get 40-80MB/s write speed. That's pretty much a 840 Evo can do if all cells are full.

    If you want the write speed back, you have to activate TRIM. AND manually TRIM the SSD. AND keep the SSD have at least 20% free space.
     

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