Satire clip on both German moral patronizing and anti-islam movements

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Cox Orange, Apr 1, 2016.

  1. Cox Orange, Apr 1, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2016

    Cox Orange macrumors 68000

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    #1

    From the makers of the show
    Annotations:
    - the female "dork" on the TV is the leader of the right-populist party AfD "Alternative for Germany", anti-EU/anti-immigration partly seen as the political embodiment/arm of the PEGIDA "movement".
    Good impression of the AfD, see interview with Tim Sebastian (english)
    Code:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anmDcVeuZwA
    - the mob shown: probably such movements in general, but mainly PEGIDA (Patriotic Europeans against the Islamisation of the Ocident), a german movement (though there were danish and dutch attempts to imitate/join it), gathering people with unfound fears against the immigration policy (undermined by Neo-Nazi leaders, further radicalising the protesters).
    - "Wir sind das Volk" (We are the people) shouted by and connected with the peaceful demonstrant movement in the GDR before the fall of the Berlin wall 9th Nov 1989, often referred to as "the peaceful revolution". Misused by xenophobe PEGIDA who's hate speeches are reminiscent of a climate that can be imagined as an eve before a possible "Chrystal Night" (which too took place on a Nov, 9th, of course. - swot note: there are actually 4 "events" in German history that took place on a 9th Nov in different years).
    - Immanuel Kant: philosopher, the "father of the age of enlightenment" (I am not implying you don't know it, but I met at least one person with a degree in history, who didn't know him, so I just say it)
    - written by late night show "ZDF royale Magazin" host Jan Boemermann, who had also done the Varoufakis video I once posted
    Code:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Afl9WFGJE0M
     
  2. thewap macrumors demi-god

    thewap

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    #2
    Interesting parallel with the USA where pride in a sovereign country is depicted as nazi-ism. In the past the US always has had political asylum laws that were subject to strict vetting. However open border policy with islamic countries is causing ( and would cause) many cultural and democratic incompatibility problems.

    In many ways it is also unfair to the muslim migrants to force them to integrate with western values, while countries like the saudis will not accept immigrants of their own religion.
     
  3. Meister, Apr 2, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2016

    Meister Suspended

    Meister

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    #3
    Absolutely agreed.

    It isn't the genuine refugees fault at all.

    This is an engineered crisis on a global scale.

    Hildabeast had her hands in this and her followers don't care.
     
  4. thewitt macrumors 68020

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    #4
    Immigration means moving to another country and integrating into their culture, not establishing your own pseudo-country inside their country.

    If you don't want to integrate into their culture, stay home.
     
  5. Cox Orange thread starter macrumors 68000

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    #5
    Well, that's not the way I understood the video clip. The makers of the clip are actually FOR the "welcome culture" etc., but at the same time making fun of the clichee-fullfilling typical german behavior of overdoing/over-accomplishing something and even though "this time we are nice", we still force our thoughts on the world (like "By the German way, the world shall be healed", "Am deutschen Wesen, soll die Welt genesen" which is part of a romantic poem by Emanuel Geibel, which got used by the Kaiserreich to justifiy colonialism and later by the Nazis).

    "We are proud of not being proud", is also portraying a typical (modern) German reaction or behavior: "look at us, we are so nice, we are morally better, but we are humble at the same time.". So actually they are proud of their own goodness, but at the same time saying, no we do it all humble, all for the poor people. Sort of a feeling of Like when Germany hosted the soccer world cup in 2006 and everyone from arround the world said what great hosts Germans are. The reaction is they are proud of being suddenly liked and at the same time would never admit and always say they're humble and not proud.

    They (the makers of the clip) are actually not really critizising it, but making fun of ourselves (us Germans), the way we do all this and being overly "passionate" over the whole thing.

    But at the same time and this is important(!) the makers of the clip are against the xenophobic, right-populist movements who take it to the other extreme ("oh no, they are flooding and swamping us. We are in danger in our warm beds, We have to burn refugee housings" -> though it is only 0,3%).

    Well, I am not good at explaining.

    The music style btw. is immitating the best known German band in the US, "Rammstein", their pronounciation shapes or puts forward the clichee Americans have of German as a "hard/harsh" language and sounding as if a nazi-officer is talking to you. :)
    The funny thing is, Germany has asylum laws. Those who are not politically persecuted, from a war zone, homosexual, etc. get send back. The problem is, that the decison process always was slow and now with the slow system, they have to even decide over such a high number of people. It is easy to grant asylum to Syrians, but what do you do, if the passports are false fabricated or not even existing. It all takes longer. The second problem is, that they partly have problems, making the people go, that have to go. Also some disappear into anonymousy or get criminal while they have nothing to do, when waiting 1 year for their decision and loose hope they will finally get their decision.
    Heh, I'm not sure, if the majority would even want to be in Saudi Arabia, they probably would end up as work slaves, like others, no matter what religion they have. ;)
     
  6. vrDrew macrumors 65816

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    #6


    I'm sorry to say that there is a large swathe of US culture that is incapable of understanding any sort of artwork that has more than a hint of irony or deeper meaning in it. Thats why the Reagan people thought "Little Pink Houses" and "Born in the USA" would be good campaign songs. And probably a thousand other examples.

    On a more current level; there is a huge contingent of people in this country who are using tragic incidents in Europe to rationalize carpeting-bombing Middle Eastern countries; discriminating and and ghettoizing Muslim Americans; and who knows what else.

    Despite being a nation built by immigrants, on the foundations of equality and liberty - many of these so-called patriots seem eager to rush down the tragic rabbit-hole of demagoguery and religious persecution Germany tragically followed seventy some years ago.
     
  7. Bug-Creator macrumors 6502

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    #7
    That number is part of the problem, cos it would only make sense if these migrants (who stopped being refugees somewhere between Turkey and Austria) would spread evenly over all europe.

    Depending on the time scale used, we'd be talking 1-2% for Germany, a number that can be handled but can't behandled if it becomes the yearly dose.
     
  8. Renzatic Suspended

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    #8
    Like anything, it's a matter of degrees. Being proud of your home country is perfectly fine, provided you don't use that pride as an excuse to stomp a mudhole in other people's faces.

    It's perfectly fair. We respect their culture, and gave them sanctuary. That same level of respect should be expected from them in return.
     
  9. thewap macrumors demi-god

    thewap

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    #9
    Many did understand the propaganda message and may not agree with it. Our constitution and country is not based on the rights of illegal immigrants, any fool would understand that.
     
  10. Meister Suspended

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    #10
    I understand your point very well, because this was my initial reaction. but this is naive.

    This migration of millions of people was caused on purpose and has complex and grave effects.
     
  11. Renzatic Suspended

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    #11
    No, it wasn't done on purpose. It's just yet another unintended side effect of the 1st world's whole "hey, it's Wednesday, let's **** with the Middle East again" attitude.
     
  12. Cox Orange, Apr 2, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2016

    Cox Orange thread starter macrumors 68000

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    #12
    Of course, "it takes bigger balls" ;) (than using fears for demagoguery and simple solutions)

    I think there is also a hyprocracy in first criticising the countries that build fences and than actually profiting of the whole situation on the Greek/turkish boarder. I bet the government is silently quiet happy of the side effect of the other members's actions. It's a tightrope walk between moral arrogance and hypocracy on one hand, and the humanitarian responsibility or what Merkel called the "moral imperative" on the other.
    I think it can be handled, though we probably will owe part of the success to Erdogan later and still we can't give him a free-ride and let him demand, what ever he wants. (I am still not totally sure that was a brilliant idea/deal). Tough dilemma. Still I think we have to help somehow rather than reject.

    On the other hand I wonder, how we are in crisis mode and then every year we hear that the GDP again has been higher than expected, that tax revenue has been again higher than predicted and the unemployment rate has further dropped again. Doesn't seem like the migration has had an impact yet (well as we know there are actually people in the industry profiting from it, landlords, tent makers etc.)
    --- Post Merged, Apr 2, 2016 ---
    I agree.
    Though, to speak in their favour, I'd say I/one can't always expect one culture to understand the other culture's sense of humor or menaing f satire etc. (I know you are referring to Americans' understanding inside their own cultural background environment.)
     
  13. Bug-Creator macrumors 6502

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    #13
    Allmost none of the 1.x million recent migrants have made it through to the point of getting a work permit meaning they also can't show up as unemployed.
     
  14. Meister, Apr 3, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2016

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    #14
    The total amount of migrants to germany in 2015 was 2 million.
    http://www.zeit.de/gesellschaft/201...migration-deutschland-abwanderung-zuwanderung

    Germany is a tiny country with only 77 million inhabitants.

    Proportionaly this would be the same as if 10 million people would migrate to the US in one year.

    Traditionaly german culture is not very welcoming: The language is obtuse, the laws complicated and sometimes bizare, migrants are discriminated against in various aspects of life. To think that 2 million people will just start learning the language, get jobs and start building a life in an alien, cold envirnoment is beyond naive.

    Additionaly a large amount of these people entered undocumented. Nobody knows who they are or where exactly they came from.

    The implications of this mass migration will be severe, complicated and long lasting.

    The US has to save itself from developments like these.
     
  15. vrDrew macrumors 65816

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    #15


    All true.

    But it is also worth remembering that Germany, and several other European countries, are facing a demographic challenge. Low birth-rates and increasing life-spans have resulted in a situation where there are insufficient young working people to support Germany's rapidly aging population. Where German employers struggle to find qualified workers.

    Even with immigration Germany's population is expected to decline, from a peak of 82 million in 2002 to about 75 million by 2050. This, ultimately, will threaten Germany's position within Europe itself, as both Britain and France are expected to overtake Germany in population within the coming decades.

    Granted - immigration will change Germany's ethnic and racial makeup. But that should not necessarily be a bad thing. Germany is rich country with a highly educated workforce. Managed carefully; Germany's "open-door" immigration policy will help Germany remain economically, socially, and culturally vibrant throughout the 21st century.
     
  16. Cox Orange thread starter macrumors 68000

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    #16
    Of course, but the sinking unemployment rate now, softens the effect of future unemployed refugees, then. Yes, it sounds quite naive, but who knows. Also not all of them will be unemployed and not all of them will stay. There are even yet some going back (though mainly other groups), because they loose patience, waiting for their aproval.
    However the article states that 860,000 left at the same time which makes 1.14mill.

    It might further drop, as soon as there will be more people sent back either to countries that have been considered save havens and people from there being seen as economical migrants and/or to those countries that have been planned to be declared save havens recently (Marokko, Tunesia and Albania). The latter can be discussed, of course.
    (side note: I found it quit interesting that Marokko doesn't want their people back, because the workers in Europe send their family money and the taxes on that money in Marokko make half of the GDP of Marokko! Crazy).

    The fences and the Turkey treaty will perhaps do the rest in diminuishing the numbers. (Yes, I know moral hypocracy and double standards).

    Speaking about Turkey. Turkish work immigrants from 1961-1973 (taking their uneducated family members with them later). 14 Million came, that is 1.16 Million a year and towards 1973 11 Million started going back over time.
    That is 3 Million having stayed. Today 1.6 million Turks live in Germany, that might indicate, that some of them climbed up the latter and got less children and another group perhaps went back much later.

    Since asylum to Syrians is granted 3 years, some will have to go, if they don't get their status prolonged. So this will further soften the numbers. It also tells us, we have to make Syria a place where they want to go back to. (Besides, if we declare Syria a save haven once in the future, a huge number can't say anythinga gainst it, if we sent them back in an ****** move, even when Syria will not be build up well then.)
    All agreed, they will have to jump through some loops, but it will perhaps also force us to better the efficiency of our immigration offices and change some hardened processes by having to progress. It seems suddenly politicians are forced to adress issues/problems that have existed for a longer time, now that they are beat to it.
    I also think we are making progress in providing them language classes that they don't have to wait 1-3 years for like before. The reason some didn't integrate in the past, has been, that they weren't allowed language classes before they got their status decided on (thinking behind it: why waste money on yomeone who will go back). I admit it has become easier for the state to grant language classes, since they know that the Syrians will stay longer, so they don't have to think about not wasting ressources to people that will be rejected. The bureaucratic processes have become better, it seems. The Berlin LAGESO can't be seen as the role model, as we know it is rather a role model of failing. Rhineland-Palatine, Bavaria and Baden-Württemberg seem to be doing good on the civil servant level regarding organized processes.

    Also, since it will stop now, due to the very recent politics, there is the chance that the incoming number will increase slower so we can catch up with it.

    Yes, I know all too much maybe, perhaps, probably,... but well it has to be adressed somehow and I think we can't tell other countries to adopt our european values, when we ignore them ourselves. I don't say "let 'em ALL in", neither I say one nation (or continent) can solve the world's problems.

    I hope that all the small factors that i mentioned above, will weigh in, if not immediately, then over time.
    That is a problem, yes. I also don't know if that can be adressed well, since it seems the number of undocumented people having been sent back in the past has not been high (well, where do you want to sent them, if they are undocumented, yes I know). It will also be having to do with, if controles inside the european territory (assuming that boarders will be build back) will be raised and there will be acceptance within the public.
    Today I heard the German intelligence is against creating a european center of data on criminals, because they think it will harm personal rights and be seen by the public as a defacto bringing back of teh "Schleier-Fahndung". I wonder what they are hiding that THEY are against it, a bit phony, I think. I mean, we know that Germany lets the spying be done by the US and Israel, so they themselves don't get in conflict with the law that Germany isn't allowed to spy on its own citizens, unless a judge has aproved of it in a case, where there has to have hapened stuff before.
    On the other hand, I have the feeling that the police has raised the number of razzias quite much recently. Remember when they closed the whole Zeil in Frankfurt twice completely, flodding the area with policemen. Then there were the houses in Hamburg and Gießen they raided and the salafist comunities that they went after. You get the feeling they are busy everyday.

    Sorry, I am derailing...
     
  17. 1458279 Suspended

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    #17
    This hits the nail on the head. They say they love America, they only love that they have enough rights here to do what they can't do in their own homeland.

    This is the real issue in this election, letting people change America into their own homeland instead of letting America be America.

    Being such an open nation will be our downfall.
     
  18. Renzatic Suspended

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    #18
    Hasn't killed us yet!
     
  19. 1458279 Suspended

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    #19
    We're not entirely dead, but just to look at one thing:
    Record 25,741,000 Foreign-Born People Employed in the U.S.
    http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2016/04/01/record-25741000-foreign-born-people-employed-u-s/

    What would happen to American wages if those 25 million jobs were filled by Americans? Could we end some of the welfare if we had 25 million more Americans working?

    We'd have a labor shortage and most of the welfare people could get meaningful, well paying jobs.
     
  20. Renzatic Suspended

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    #20
    And how many of those foreign-born people are now naturalized citizens of the US?
     
  21. 1458279 Suspended

    1458279

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    #21
    Don't know, but I'll take the stance of American's first.

    This is the same issue with the H1B Visas... we should fix our system so that Americans get those jobs first, or at least try to educate our people so that have a real shot at those jobs.

    I read that 75% of Silicon Valley are not American born.

    Our government should be serving America first.
     
  22. Cox Orange thread starter macrumors 68000

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    #22
    How many of them were skilled ones, that could not be replaced by (unskilled?) Americans. I always here that America does sort of an selection of who they take and who not.

    But you seem to have the same idea, saying
    Do you vote for free education?
     
  23. 1458279 Suspended

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    #23
    We say we have a selection process, but what we have is a political favor for cash process.

    We already have free education. YouTube, iTunesU, Khan Academy, Peoples University, and books.

    It's college that isn't free. There's a difference between a degree and an education.

    College is the business of convincing people that a piece of paper has great value and can be control so that they can charge a great deal of money for it. There's no reason they can't record the professors and have the students watch the recording online. There's no reason the books can't be written and reproduced in eBook format. The students can post questions and answers online, and tests can be given much the same as Microsoft and Cisco does with their certification.
     
  24. Renzatic Suspended

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    #24
    I agree with you concerning the H1B visas. They only serve to better educate and employ another nation's citizenry at our own expense.

    But if they're naturalized, they're American. Fretting about them not being born here is splitting hairs.
     
  25. thermodynamic Suspended

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    #25
    If you mean Sanders, people are free to read up how he plans to re-allocate tax money and possibly increase taxes (if he can't end corporate welfare) - the people still pay for it, but do you prefer our tax money going to our own citizens to benefit from or given to companies that offshore or automate jobs? Why would a free market, which has said many times that government involvement is bad, need money from government at all?
    --- Post Merged, Apr 3, 2016 ---
    ^^this
     

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