Scotland Independence

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Solomani, Sep 15, 2014.

  1. Solomani macrumors 68040

    Solomani

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    #1
    Touchy subject for those who live in in the UK, but let's have at it anyways!

    I'm not a UK citizen, but I do see that this will potentially set a precedence for other independence movements around the (Western) world. Hence it will have huge implications for many other nations including the one I live in (USA).

    Catalonia in Spain is carefully watching this. But so are the pro-seccessionist Texans.
     
  2. Happybunny macrumors 68000

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    #2
    Pro Russian East Ukrainians, although I think they have a different approach to gaining their independence, it’s more the 1776 model they are going for. ;)
     
  3. rdowns macrumors Penryn

    rdowns

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    #3
    Scotland ought to think twice before leaving. The US Press Sect. said we have an interest in seeing the UK stay united. :eek:
     
  4. Scepticalscribe Contributor

    Scepticalscribe

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    #4
    I had debated starting a thread about this, and am a little surprised that it has taken until now for a thread to be started on this extraordinarily interesting and hugely important matter.

     
  5. Meister Suspended

    Meister

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    #5
    I hope scottland becomes independent. I am always on the side of people or groups declaring their independence.
     
  6. Solomani thread starter macrumors 68040

    Solomani

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    #6
    Yeah, the East Ukrainian model is totally different.

    What's happening in Scotland is unique…. and we will certainly see it ONLY in the civilized, developed Western nations. We sure as hell won't see something like China allowing Tibetans to "vote to decide their independence". That sure as hell is unlikely to happen in countries outside of the West.

    ----------

    Including East Ukraine? Including Palestine? Because I know of many people who will say the same thing you just said, but then they backtrack when it comes to East Ukraine, simply because they are biased American patriots who hate Russia.
     
  7. Meister Suspended

    Meister

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    #7
    That's true. Tibet is occupied by china. Occupied territories rarely declare their independence.
    Would kind make the whole war and occupation thing pointless in the first place. ;)
     
  8. ChrisWB macrumors 6502

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    #8
    It's a strange place to live right now. The English MPs have been campaigning downtown for the past week or so. Prior to that they spent their time insulting Scots. The English MPs are rushing to promise Scots everything short of independence, including new statehood powers and some sort of federal representation.

    Social media in the UK is flooded with the English insulting the Scottish. There's a real sense that the English possess a strong animosity towards Scots. It's strange, because I didn't detect any of that animosity prior to the run up to the independence vote.

    MPs in Wales and Northern Ireland have chimed in to say that they want the same federal/state representation and powers that have been offered to Scotland. There's a chance that the entire UK will be divided if Scotland goes independent.
     
  9. chown33 macrumors 604

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    #9
    There is no Constitutionally defined procedure for secession in the US. When it came up in the 1800's, there was a memorable bit of fighting over it.

    The first step to Texas seceding would be to amend the Constitution to provide for secession. Since that needs somewhat more than the votes of some disgruntled Texans, the likelihood of such an amendment passing is about the same as Scotland detaching from Britain and floating down to the Caribbean.
     
  10. juanm macrumors 65816

    juanm

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    #10
    Not me. Very often, it's just a way for the local politicians (or Putin, in Ukraine) to divide people in order to gain absolute power over a region. If you feel oppressed, there are democratic ways to deal with that, but seceding is the easy, short-sighted solution, and I'm suspicious of anyone who pushes to go that way. The classic "vote for me and you'll see, it'll be better if I'm at the helm". Nationalisms in general are, to my eyes, nonsense. All countries have had their lights and shadows, and it's pointless to delight in remembering past times of splendour. The UK was at one point the most powerful country in the world, but so were at some point Spain, France, Greece, the Roman Empire...
    It took 50 years for Europe to unite, and there are obviously things to iron out, and things to start over, but union is the only way, in my mind, to move forward.
     
  11. zin Suspended

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    #11
    I am against independence.

    The "Yes" campaign have not yet put forward any answers to real questions that demand answers at this point. They have dismissed legitimate questions as "scaremongering" which is downright false.

    1. Which currency do they plan to use? They have consistently said they will go forward with a currency union but the Treasury has said this will not be allowed to happen. If they are to use Sterling, then it will not be a union. They will be unofficial users with no say over monetary policy. They have destroyed some of their own sovereignty without even getting started.
    2. How will they finance their expenditures? They have claimed that the oil is theirs, but it isn't, and the oil is running out, fast. Their estimates are way over the top and they have consistently denied they will have a huge budget black hole, but they will. They have not stated how they will obtain the revenue they need to fund the services they want, including NHS Scotland, which the IFS has stated will be subject to cuts in an independent Scotland.
    3. How do you plan on obtaining immediate EU membership? The "Yes" campaign says it's possible, but the European Union and member states say that at the minimum there will be a delay of a few years before Scotland can be admitted. The outgoing EU Commission President has even stated it is almost impossible for an independent Scotland to continue being a member.
    4. How do they plan to defend their sovereignty? Without a credible budget they will not be able to afford a national army. In addition, they say they will ban nuclear weapons and force the removal of the UK nuclear deterrent from Scotland, which could potentially endanger the national security of the UK.

    No answers yet. This is simply a badly thought out idea with no credible plans whatsoever. The "Yes" campaign has been about populist buzzwords relating to "choosing our own future" and vastly inaccurate estimates on budgets and oil reserves.

    If Scotland votes to go independent then I will have no sympathy if their economy tanks because of the influx of commerce escaping to England.
     
  12. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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  13. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #13
    The problem is that the Scots currently do much too well out of the union, and the English understandably don't like it that they are whining about it.
     
  14. P-Worm macrumors 68020

    P-Worm

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    #14
    If the Euro experiment has taught us one thing, it's taught us that governments need to be in control of their own currency. All of that talk I have heard about Scotland leaving is that they plan to continue to use the Pound. Not a good idea….not a good idea at all…

    P-Worm
     
  15. Apple fanboy macrumors Penryn

    Apple fanboy

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    #15
    I live in the UK (I am English), and this will have a huge impact on me. Yet I don't get a vote as I live in England. A friend at works sister moved to Scotland and she does get a vote (she is also English). Good friends of mine the Irvines (can't get much more Scotish than that) moved to England a few years ago and they don't.
    Can someone please explain?
     
  16. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #16
    Residents of Scotland get to vote, non-residents don't get to vote.
     
  17. ChristianVirtual macrumors 601

    ChristianVirtual

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    #17
    I dont think that's a smart idea. My main concern is that an independent Scotland would not be economically sustainable in the long run. No data to back it up; a pure stomach-driven concern. How much oil do they have ?

    And the remaining UK need to change its banner ? The Union Jack contain the Scotland's flag ?

    Next: Bavaria in Germany ... :D
     
  18. Meister Suspended

    Meister

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    #18
    The history of the United States disagrees.
     
  19. Melrose Suspended

    Melrose

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    #19
    I had to chuckle at this - and not in a condescending way. It's like a parent saying "as long as you live under my roof you can't leave home."

    It's illegal to secede, but that's the whole point of declaring independence. :D
     
  20. Peterkro macrumors 68020

    Peterkro

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    #20
    I'm in no way a nationalist and understand that a Scottish breakaway will not free them from the very real constraints of Capitalism but it will give them options.They have old alliances with Norway and France in particular which bode well.They'd be mad not to go for it.If for no other reason than the establishment have crawled out from under their rocks and are putting huge pressure on for a no vote.If you are panicking the powers that be to that extend you are doing something right.
    Unfortunately having said that I expect a marginal no result.
     
  21. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #21
    Given no-one has attempted to invade the US for 200 years as well as the United States greater land area, I don't really think the US has actually done that well.
     
  22. Sydde macrumors 68020

    Sydde

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  23. LizKat macrumors 68040

    LizKat

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    #23
    That just seems so insane to me. Balkanization after all this time and in an era of global markets. They're better off sticking together and grousing down at the pub.

    Yeah, exactly.
     
  24. Peterkro macrumors 68020

    Peterkro

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    #24
    By the way if you want a view from a country that has been through this look at the Irish media (you won't see anything other than the establishment view in U.K. media).
    If you were to ask anybody on the streets of Dublin was independence a mistake they'd either laugh or summon a doctor to have you sectioned.
    This in spite of all the problems they have had.
     
  25. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #25
    The Irish were actually mistreated by the English though...
     

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