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Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by zimv20, May 10, 2006.
what a load of BS.
Why am I not at all surprised?
Articles of Impeachment anyone?
This has gone too far!
If I am reading the above right, I take it to mean that the Justice Dept is unable to get the clearance to investigate it's own lawyers?
I am so confused I don't know who to blame - The Justice Dept (if it is a lame excuse), NSA (if it is stonewalling), or the Administration (for shirking accountability in favor of legal/political considerations).
My head hurts.
They are saying the Justice department lawyers do not have security
clearance to investigate NSA records.
Remember all those references to a government within our government?
And now they'll try to lock down CIA as well in order to prevent these hoodlums from facing justice.
Even worse that "we the people" stand by and allow this to continue.
This sort of bureaucratic skullduggery is why America has strong, elected civilian leadership vested with the power to smite those who would abuse their appointments.
The best leadership money can buy
Isn't there supposed to be a CHECKS AND BALANCES SYSTEM in place? How can one agency tell the rest of the government to **** off? And why can't the American public do anything about this?
Because this administration is " special "
Laws don't apply if it means BushCo will face charges of treason.
Im convinced we do have a govt within a govt who answers to no one at all, its time to redo congress and redo the federal govt folks. If we dont we are going to be shafted by this govt within a govt that does everything in secret.
What a convienent way to kill off an investigation. Nope, sorry. Can't give the investigators a security clearance, so nothing to see here.
Can you imagine the screeching if Clinton had tried something like this?
and think of the precedent being set here. there'll never be an investigation again.
The Republican Congress & President are showing their true colors and they arent red white & blue.
Yeah, but the investigation into Clinton was for getting his rocks off with an intern - a much more serious matter since it touched upon the moral fiber of every American.
Oh yes, and of course at the time executive privilege was something to be sneered at. Investigating the president during a time of war was no big deal, and supporting the troops meant criticizing their commander-in-chief while they had boots on the ground in enemy territory. Congressional investigations were started anytime someone on the Clinton staff sneezed and didn't file a TPS report to go with it. The Starr team leaked like a sieve, and no one on the right seemed to care a whit. Oh yeah, and back then lying was the sin that could bring down the civilized world, and the GOP knew no limits in their oversight duties.
And then, of course, 9-11 changed everything.
None of my business, writing from the UK, but I have read through this thread and, as a disinterested outsider, think "WTF!!!!?????!" Again as an outsider, I do not understand why there is not a mass uprising by the 'people' to remove what seems to me a totally corrupt administration. When anybody's legal system (and you had one that was perceived to be of the best) is manipulated and disregarded, then surely you are lost.
You so have my sympathy. But maybe I am being naive and ignorant.
No, you're not naive and ignorant - it's the American populace that's being naive and ignorant. There's a longstanding tradition ingrained in the American psyche that government always has their best interests at heart - couple this with the general American ambivelance towards politics and sense of global entitlement, and many folks simply live their lives by the rule of, "well, I got mine." It's also the case that many Americans are notoriously difficult to convince that the "American dream" is a myth carefully constructed to keep people purchasing items (to fuel the economy) and believing that they will someday "make it" as a millionaire. Because people who aren't wealthy and organized believe in earnest that they will someday be wealthy and have social and political power, they vote against their immediate economic interests and bank on the future - which in fact is a strategy to keep the current economic and political structure exactly in place.
Also, "values" are a big part of American voting - Bush has "values." He belives in the nuclear (nuklear?) family, is a fundamentalist Christian, and speaks candidly. A lot of folks think, "well, I'm a Christian, I believe in the family, and I'm a good person. Therefore Bush must be this good person too." The infallable belief in the fallable - Bush's "mistakes" are forgiven because, "he's a regular guy in a tough situation. I want my family safe, I want to stop terrorism, I want America safe too - so of course Bush has to go to war, sign the Patriot Act, check up on phone conversations, or whatever else is necessary." Couple this with a carefully coordinated fear-mongering campaign that taps into racism and xenophobia, and you've got an elected president.
Plus, the U.S., aside from the Revolutionary and Civil wars, doesn't have a tradition of the "people rising up" in an organized manner. McCarthyism did a real number on labor and community organizing - community organizing is perceived to be a lefty and red strategy, therefore because the U.S. "won" the Cold War against an improperly implemented Communist system, labor groups, community organizers, and to some extent social justice organizations all have a pallor of Communism to the everyday American. This triggers a visceral reaction against them and keeps people believing in the American dream.
I know what you mean and I can empathise with so much of it. But. But somewhere along the line, which seems to be right now IMO, you (the people) MUST see that, collectively you are getting right royally shafted by what is a --- totally --- corrupt ---administration. Your whole way of life, dreams, aspirations (monetary and otherwise) is just disappearing down the pan. Again, and I so apologise if this is none of my business but it is how I am seeing things as a disinterested observer, what the USA is now coming across as is little more than a banana republic - and not even a very good one at that. At least in Zimbabwe, Mugabe is obviously barking and the country will eventually recover. But you guys, you are being shafted and --- I just do not understand how everybody seems to keep taking it! We have a somewhat similar scenario (although a couple of orders of magnitude less) to yours operating here in the UK and everybody knows that it is only a matter of time before we are set back on a proper democratic course. It just so scares me when a country's judicial system can be manipulated in such a contemptuous manner; there is no protection from anything.
Hey, I so apologise if I am speaking out of turn.
The only thing keeping this president in power in response to UKnjb is a republican Congress. In fact because of this republican congress this president has been able to break our own laws.
I can't say I disagree with you, but there's few others here that believe now is the time to do something. Even the Democratic Party, ostensibly the counterweight to the Republicans, has completely caved in to this administration. There's a good chance women in the US will lose the right to abortion in the next few years.
Of course, we're not very good at listening to others - the French said something similar a few years ago, and now we don't have "French Fries" anymore, we have "Freedom Fries" being served in Washington DC's cafeterias.
Well, the last thing to come out of Pandora's Box was hope, so we'll see...
Please Please keep in mind that "at least" 49% of the American voters did NOT vote for this maniac!
You ask why no one has done anything.
Well, many people have become far too comfortably numb and self absorbed to act in defiance.
Most owe so much money living their American Dream that they have been enslaved by their own debt.
Their almighty credit score is the only thing making all they have possible.
An IRS audit is their worst nightmare.
It's quite sad that people have lost their guts to stand up and stand together.
I read a lot of political rhetoric coming from the Democratic party and Move On and Act For Change, but nothing with any guts to it and certainly nothing creative.
It's pitiful that we can't even organise enough to change the system in a meaningful way.
The phrase " a matter of national security" should be changed to read
"a matter of political security" or "a matter of corporate financial security"
The truth is that most people are too afraid to even put their own name
on a letter voicing their discontent.
No wonder things are so messed up.
What can we do about it? Vote them out? We've tried that. Short of some sort of revolution, which might happen if things got that bad, we're already doing all we can. Complaining. Seriously though, we've shown our displeasure, look at recent polls. And those who fear losing their jobs (politicians need to be re-elected remember) are no longer wanting to have anything to do with the Bush administration, because even with their base, it's become political poison. Conservatives will stay home, liberals will vote in droves, and those in the middle will vote for anyone but those responsible for how bad things have gotten. The backlash has already started, and I expect things to just continue getting bad for the Republicans unless they really turn things around. Which they don't seem to want to do.
It's gotten so bad, people will be soured on neocons for awhile I think, but Americans do have short memories.
I don't know about a short backlash on this one. The cuts in education and fear of the waning interest in a military career leading to a draft may finally get through to the typically ambivalent 18-24 year olds who are young enough to have their political views completely reformed and may hold this grudge for quite some time. The last couple elections showed us that only a small percentage of college students either changing their vote to Democrats or voting Democrat for the first time is enough to swing the election. Add to it the independent shift and possible backlash from the religious right for not getting their agenda pushed hard enough and it could be a tough margin to overcome in the near future.
Of course this is all conjecture and if there is one thing my wife has managed to teach me it would be, I'm wrong.....
This November is probably more important than the 2008 Presidential election.
We still have questionable voting machines and an administration that will stop at nothing to get what they want.
We also can not underestimate the power of organized religion and how that
could affect voter turnout.
Once again people will allow issues that should always be a matter of personal choice to influence their decision.
The question isn't whether the Republicans lose ground this year, but whether they lose enough ground to give up control of one of the houses of Congress. I think we need to prepare ourselves for the eventuality that neither house will flip control, but that the Republican majorities will narrow considerably. Congressional seats are non-competitive by design, the vast majority of incumbents win, and few seats are open. This fact of life limits political damage, no matter who is on top.
As for the topic, I heard this story on NPR this morning while I was still in bed. I thought I'd woken up on the other side of the looking glass.
I'd say this is the most likely outcome as well.