Self Defense against illegal police aggression legal in Indiana.

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Technarchy, Oct 18, 2014.

  1. Technarchy macrumors 603

    Technarchy

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    #1
    Police are completely out of control these days, and it's about time some states realized that a badge doesn't give someone the right to enter your home illegally and kill you, or your dog, or you kid sleeping on the couch.

    This is extension of castle doctrine which absolutely apply to poor uses of exigent circumstance and no-knock gestapo raids on the wrong house.

     
  2. Mac'nCheese macrumors 68030

    Mac'nCheese

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    #2
    This won't end well. I see a lot of police stand offs and swat teams in the future. Imagine calling 911 to say you just killed a cop in your home for whatever reason. See what the response is.
     
  3. samiwas macrumors 65816

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    #3
    That's probably taking it just a smidge overboard.

    Won't be long until this law is used to try to justify killing a cop for some truly pathetic reason.
     
  4. vrDrew macrumors 65816

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    #4
    I had to look that word up. Basically it means your front yard. (Any land surrounding a dwelling or other structure.)

    I think a very strong argument can be made that some aspects of police work and practice in this country have become "out of control." But I disagree very strongly against using force, firearms, or violence in response.

    This is not purely an argument made on moral grounds. The reality is that it will be all but impossible to win any armed conflict with the police. And once your bring a firearm or other weapon to bear on a police officer - no matter what the circumstances - the police are justified in shooting to kill you.

    The way to fight back against illegal police action is in court, with a lawyer. Or in the legislature. Or the newspaper. Or by organizing peaceful protests.
     
  5. Bug-Creator macrumors 6502

    Bug-Creator

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    #5
    (didn't they have that in a Picket-Fences episodes where some drug dealer shoot a copy busting into his house ?)

    At which point more cops will turn to a "shoot 1st, so noone gonna ask later" way of doing their jobs.

    Gee, whats it with you Muricans allways going after the symtons, while ignoring the actual problem.
     
  6. Naimfan macrumors 68040

    Naimfan

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    #6
    Agreed.

    Police need to remember they work for us. Many don't get that.
     
  7. Technarchy thread starter macrumors 603

    Technarchy

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    #7
    The problems the violence is already in play, and you're just as likely to be killed or maimed for nothing.

    [​IMG]

    http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/2...-jones-not-ready-to-stop-fighting-for-justice

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/news/aiyana-jones/

    http://kdvr.com/2014/08/18/georgia-...ls-after-swat-tosses-grenade-into-babys-crib/

    [​IMG]
     
  8. vrDrew macrumors 65816

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    #8
    Even if that were true (which I don't think is the case) - citizens taking up arms against the Police is only going to result in an increase in the level of violence.

    If police think that citizens are more likely to resist them when executing a search warrant, then they are more likely to show up at your house with a bulldozer and tanks.

    And secondly, I just don't think that resistance, armed or otherwise, is ever going to prevent death or injury to you or your loved ones.

    At best it might delay it for a while. If I counter an illegal attempt to search my property by firing a rifle at a police car - they are just going to come back with more and more firepower till everyone on the property is killed.

    Conversely, if I counter an illegal police intrusion onto my property by filing a lawsuit - I've got at least a reasonable chance of not only surviving, but also getting financial compensation for my losses.
     
  9. iBlazed macrumors 68000

    iBlazed

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  10. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #10
    I'll agree, though for slightly different reasons.

    Most citizens can't distinguish between a lawful vs. unlawful approach of a police officer. The citizen doesn't know for instance, whether an officer has obtained a warrant or is working from probable cause. Even if the officer is not legally allowed to do what he is doing, it's a terrible decision for the citizen to resist violently. The system has built in opportunity to counter an illegal arrest. The time to exercise one's resistance is in the court system, not while an armed officer is at your door.
     
  11. Technarchy thread starter macrumors 603

    Technarchy

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    #11
    You believe your civil liberties and right to self defense vanish just becomes someone with a badge says so?
     
  12. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #12
    The time to debate that is in the courts, not with the man with the badge.
     
  13. Technarchy thread starter macrumors 603

    Technarchy

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    #13
    Provided the badges let you live and you make it to court.
     
  14. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #14
    Look, if the man is out-and-out trying to murder you, then that's another thing entirely. But the law is allowing people to make informed judgements based on information that they don't possess.

    How do you distinguish between a "public servant’s unlawful entry" and a lawful one?
     
  15. iBlazed macrumors 68000

    iBlazed

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    #15
    I just think this can have a lot of unintended consequences. As already brought up by others.
     
  16. Technarchy thread starter macrumors 603

    Technarchy

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    #16
    Sure like being cuffed face down in your daughters blood and brains while the cops ransack your house looking for drugs that don't exist because they got played by an informant or got the wrong address.

    If cops know that getting it wrong is likely to get them shot with the liability shifted from the citizen, they will do their due diligence to ensure they are operating within the correct parameters of the law and civic duty.

    Not just kick in the door, start killing people and say the reason was "grandma startled me" and get off without justice being served.
     
  17. iBlazed macrumors 68000

    iBlazed

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    #17
    But even with this law, I still think cops will always get the benefit of doubt in the courts. They always do, and that needs to change. I don't think this law will do that. They need to be held more accountable for their actions, but I'm not sure this is the way. I definitely understand why they passed this law, I'm just not sure how I feel about it. This is a complicated issue and it's hard for me to give a definitive yes or no.
     
  18. samiwas macrumors 65816

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    #18
    Yeah...this is what I don't get. So, if you have broken a law at some point, are you not able to use force, but if you perceive yourself to be fully law-abiding, you can use force? This makes no sense and leaves things a little too open. Kind of like, you know, stand your ground laws.
     
  19. jkcerda macrumors 6502

    jkcerda

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    #19
    Yeah, might might think twice before getting stupid, some people might get assistance like Kelly Thomas.
    If police were held to the SAME standards as civilians when it comes to shootings, maybe we would not have that many trigger happy cops , that thick blue line also needs to go
     
  20. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #20
    For one, that's nicely hyperbolic.

    For two, how would pulling out a gun and shooting help in that situation?

    The courts are the best forum for justice meted out.

    In the heat of the moment, with bullets flying from both parties, I doubt little justice is being served.
     
  21. Technarchy thread starter macrumors 603

    Technarchy

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    #21
    Oh yeah, never happens, totally hyperbolic.

    http://www.policestateusa.com/2014/aiyana-stanley-jones-raid/

    [​IMG]

    Just a little cheap American black blood. Nothing to be concerned about. :roll eyes:

    As for the justice...good luck with that.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/10/joseph-weekley-mistrial-verdict_n_5965362.html

     
  22. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #22
    The unfettered access to firearms the NRA is pushing for is the root cause. Period.
     
  23. citizenzen, Oct 18, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2014

    citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #23
    Whoa. Let's try to dial back the emotional rhetoric a bit ... and talk about a complex issue like adults.

    How does it serve anyone inside that house, to have a father, enraged over the killing of his daughter, pull out a gun and start shooting at the police?

    Why should that be encouraged as a means of justice?
     
  24. jkcerda macrumors 6502

    jkcerda

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    #24
    Yes, God forbid people have the same means to defend themselves with against criminals :rolleyes:
     
  25. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #25
    You're arguing against something that has never been put forward in this thread.

    You're sloganeering ... again ... instead of actually engaging in the debate.
     

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