Serious question for the Gun Enthusiasts

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by vrDrew, Oct 26, 2016.

  1. vrDrew macrumors 65816

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    #1
    The New York Times recently ran an article about some of the most notorious gun crimes of the past year. The article starts with this story:

    I'm going to assume that it was illegal for John Houser to own a gun. But without any system in place to prevent him from buying them, or at least make it very difficult, then those existing firearms laws don't really do much good.

    What is the gun enthusiast response to this?
    • We should do nothing, and that tragic those these incidents are, they represent only a small fraction of the overall crime and homicide figures.
    • That all states should be required put in place some system to ensure all sellers of firearms (registered gun dealers as well as private parties) can perform a background check before selling a firearm.
    • Something else.
    This isn't, in my opinion, an issue about "grabbing" or confiscating guns. It's not an issue about the type of guns people are allowed to own. It's not about concealed carry, or bullet buttons, or gun-free zones. It is, in my opinion, about the fact that a person adjudged mentally unbalanced, who had been convicted of serious crimes, and who was known to local law enforcement as a dangerous individual - was still able to purchase multiple firearms at a retail establishment, and with apparently no restrictions (other than, I'm assuming, showing ID that established he was of legal age to do so.)
     
  2. DearthnVader macrumors 6502a

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  3. DearthnVader macrumors 6502a

    DearthnVader

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    #4
    No, in all seriousness, how much money did he owe the banks?
     
  4. tunerX Suspended

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    #5
    Your assumption is incorrect, In Alabama it wasn't illegal for him to own a gun. The sheriff didn't issue a carry permit so it was illegal for him to conceal carry it.

    http://www.newsweek.com/lafayette-s...legally-despite-history-mental-illness-357274

    He was accused of crimes and never found guilty... according to your little blurb. Unless you think being accused or charged the same as being guilty... or being held for psychiatric evaluation then released the same as being insane.
     
  5. jkcerda macrumors 6502a

    jkcerda

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    #6
    innocent until proven guilty ONLY applies to democrats like Hillary :D
     
  6. BoxerGT2.5 macrumors 68000

    BoxerGT2.5

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    #7
    1. Was he ever convicted of a felony crime?
    2. The conversation about mental health and gun ownership needs to take place, but understand there are many who have reservations because they feel it will be used and expanded to keep guns out of otherwise sane peoples hands. What mechanism is there for someone to gain their 2nd amendment right back? How costly is it?
     
  7. Lord Blackadder, Oct 26, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2016

    Lord Blackadder macrumors G5

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    #8
    Most gun owners support the NRA, and the NRA opposes almost all gun control. While there is some evidence that many, possibly even most most gun owners might actually support the concept of gun control and background checks, in practical terms they elect legislators who obstruct any efforts to make such measures actually work, and who prevent any new legislation from passing. The debate has become politicized to the point that I personally see both sides' arguments as being driven toward opposite extremes.

    Increasingly, the NRA, the majority of the gun owning public (and to a lesser extent gun manufacturers) have tacitly adopted the logic that a sustained ramping up of gun production and gun ownership will make any future attempts at reform more difficult as there will simply be too many guns and angry gun owners to enforce any new control measures. The endgame would be a walking back of gun control measures to the point that gun control would no longer exist in any recognizable form, or would be at best extraordinarily weak. This would start with the removal of importation bans, and ultimately include discarding or neutering the 1968 NFA and 1986 FOPA which effectively ban or restrict ownership of SBRs, heavy-caliber weapons, machine guns, grenade launchers, mortars and RPGs (among other things). This is coupled with quite vague but genuine threats of violent armed resistance to any further gun control measures.

    Where is this situation actually leading? I have no idea. In the short term, there appears to be a steady rise in gun ownership among conservative households who never owned them before, but are essentially buying them for political reasons. Coupled with that is a much faster rise in the absolute number of guns in civilian ownership, as gun owners hoard guns they feel might be banned in the near future, along with ammunition and/or reloading equipment. This is especially true for semiautomatic civilian copies of assault rifles such as the AR-15, the production of which has exploded post-2008.

    From a gun manufacturer's point of view, there seems to be no limit to the appetite of the gun-buying public. Smith and Wesson, for example, is currently selling more than four times as many guns per year than in 2006-08.

    Outside a few liberal stronghold states like California and Massachusetts (which are overly restrictive/illogical in some aspects as far as I'm concerned), the opponents of gun control are winning, and have been for decades. But given the deadlock in legislatures across the country, I don't see big changes in the law happening any time soon.
     
  8. Macky-Mac macrumors 68030

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    #9
    on the other hand, guilty until proven innocent is the mantra of hillary-haters :p
     
  9. s2mikey macrumors 68020

    s2mikey

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    #10
    Some good points here. I am a gun owner and mostly support gun ownership. I DO believe that there needs to be a good system in place to prevent the wrong people from getting guns though. That would require some tough rules though that might upset the mental-health industry. I dunno....its a mess for sure.
     
  10. steve knight macrumors 68020

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    #11
    Or trump especially trump
     
  11. vrDrew thread starter macrumors 65816

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    #12
    I assumed (incorrectly, as it turned out) that someone with his history (ie. threatening to shoot police officers, arson, setting booby-traps) that he did have a felony record. Apparently, he did not.

    He had been ordered institutionalized by a Judge as a hazard to himself and others. This is just me, but that by and of itself ought to be a disqualifier.

    I would have thought it difficult for me to become more depressed about the mentality of gun ownership in this country. But if, after reading about this guy's behavior before shooting up the movie theater, there are a still people who think he ought to have the right to buy any gun he wanted - then consider me even more downhearted still.
     
  12. jkcerda macrumors 6502a

    jkcerda

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    #13
    NO DIFFERENT from trump haters.
     
  13. Macky-Mac macrumors 68030

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    #14
    indeed, but your post lacked "balance" so thought it was worth pointing it out......otherwise somebody might think you're a Trump campaign surrogate :p
     
  14. BoxerGT2.5, Oct 26, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2016

    BoxerGT2.5 macrumors 68000

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    #15
    IMHO this guy should have never been allowed to own a gun. I agree that someone who was court ordered into a mental institution should lose their right to own a gun. The problem is and has always been, trust. NOBODY trusts any politician when it comes to what is in an actual gun control bill. The hyperbole from both sides drowns out any rational discussion. When you hear someone like Jonathan Gruber talk about how Obamacare was largely passed because people are stupid, do you really need to question why some are absolutely against any law that restricts a given constitutional right? It's **** like that that doesn't help the gun control cause. Again, I agree something needs to be done, but I at least understand the other sides reservations.
     
  15. jkcerda macrumors 6502a

    jkcerda

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    #16
    TOUCHE .....
    --- Post Merged, Oct 26, 2016 ---
    5150 hold needs to be recorded in order to be effective, YES if on 5150 hold you are disqualified from owning firearms.
     
  16. BoxerGT2.5 macrumors 68000

    BoxerGT2.5

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    #17
    The same tactic is used by the left when it comes to illegal immigration. "We can't deport X number of people", give them a pass and we'll reset the counter.
     
  17. Lord Blackadder macrumors G5

    Lord Blackadder

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    #18
    I'm sure we could have a lively discussion on this in another thread, but it has no bearing on the current topic.
     
  18. tunerX Suspended

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    #19
    So kam Brock should never be allowed to own a gun? What about a college kid who did some acid and then gets held for a psych evaluation. I am not a fan of blanket punishments.

    https://www.google.com/search?clien...shPnPAhWGIsAKHf2fAwIQ1QIIXCgA&biw=320&bih=529
     
  19. BoxerGT2.5 macrumors 68000

    BoxerGT2.5

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    #20

    Which is why I said a discussion needs to be had and then questioned what mechanism would be in place for someone to get their rights back without having to pay $8000 to a lawyer and wait 15 months. I agree nothing should be blanketed and people should be concerned that such a authority could potentially be abused.
     
  20. vrDrew thread starter macrumors 65816

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    #21
    Ya know, if it wasn't for the Van Halen album, I wouldn't have known what that was.. (Hard to believe it's been thirty years since that came out..)

    I think we might be making some progress here. The problem, of course, comes down to details. Obviously, they have that in California. If it is recorded in the CA State database, does that prevent them from legally buying a gun? Is there any legal recourse for a person who is committed in error?

    The only way we can make this effective if it becomes part of some national legislation. And the reality is, I just don't believe that our Congress has the willpower to pass any legislation regulating guns. Even if it was something as "common sense" as having a mandatory national database of people who have been ordered confined for mental health issues and adding them to the list of those prohibited from buying guns.
     
  21. jkcerda macrumors 6502a

    jkcerda

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    #22
    1 yes, nephews wife had her guns confiscated , she self committed once and was put there again by the sheriff, these were guns she had bought legally, nephew had to petition the court to confiscate her guns after the second incident..
    2. I have no idea.
     
  22. webbuzz macrumors 65816

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    #23
    Money, attorneys, and more money.
     
  23. The-Real-Deal82 macrumors 603

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    #24
    Having not read through the thread I can only assume it's either Obama's fault, he wasn't a republican and doesn't make regular donations to the NRA. Either way there is nothing wrong in having lame gun control laws that do virtually nothing because then we can point at gun free zones and mock that they don't work. Oh yeah, 'Make America great again!!
     
  24. webbuzz macrumors 65816

    webbuzz

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    #25
    You missed the mark by a mile.
     

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