Seriously?!

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by yaxomoxay, Oct 14, 2016.

  1. yaxomoxay macrumors 68000

    yaxomoxay

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    #1
  2. DrewDaHilp1 macrumors 6502a

    DrewDaHilp1

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    "He would step in front of each girl and look you over from head to toe like we were just meat, we were just sexual objects, that we were not people,"

    If that's how you think perhaps you should not be entering beauty pageants, where you know your looks are all that matter.
     
  3. yaxomoxay thread starter macrumors 68000

    yaxomoxay

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    Exactly. Honestly, if I invested millions on that kind of business I would do the same, even if the contestants were male.
     
  4. Huntn macrumors G5

    Huntn

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    #4
    I can understand this woman's dislike of the feeling of being checked out by a sexual predator, but this article adds no significant weight for or against the serious accusations leveled at Mt Trust.
     
  5. oneMadRssn macrumors 68040

    oneMadRssn

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    #5
    GOP was all up in arms about transexuals peeing in the women's bathrooms because of a one in a billion chance that one of them might be a sexual predator, then discriminatory laws must be put in place to stop this! But when an actual sexual predator buys a beauty pageant and walks through the women's changing rooms to peep, all is fine.
     
  6. IronWaffle macrumors 6502

    IronWaffle

    #6
    Yeah, but do we know whether Trump was wearing women's underwear? Then it'd be different. I hear people saying he wears ladies' underwear. You hear these things. I mean maybe not but maybe. Can you imagine? Like pink with the frills? Seriously, folks, can we take that chance?
     
  7. yaxomoxay thread starter macrumors 68000

    yaxomoxay

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    Well, first of all he has not been convicted, so he's not a sexual predator so for now yours is slander.
    Second, the two topics have nothing to do with each other. At a beauty pageant you expect to be examined by men and/or women, head to toe, in almost no clothes. That's what is all about.
    It's like being a participant at a wet shirt contest only to complain that men look at your breasts.
    --- Post Merged, Oct 14, 2016 ---
    Now, that is something I do NOT want to see, or even visualize.
     
  8. Huntn macrumors G5

    Huntn

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    #8
    This is eye opening, if my eyes were not already open. ;)
     
  9. rdowns macrumors Penryn

    rdowns

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  10. oneMadRssn macrumors 68040

    oneMadRssn

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    #10
    You were throwing around clever latin words yesterday when were discussing this same issue. Here is another one for you: modus operandi.

    Trump said he inappropriately touches women without permission. He admitted openly. A half-dozen women or so have come forth to confirm it. His own ex-wife's experience confirms it. There is literally not a single shred of credible non-self-serving and non-hearsay evidence that suggests this isn't true. Inappropriately touching women that he is attracted to is Trump's modus operandi.

    Further, you're correct that "At a beauty pageant you expect to be examined by men and/or women, head to toe, in almost no clothes." You left out that this occurs when you are ready to perform, on stage, and almost no clothes is not the same as no clothes. The point being, they are examined at a time, place, and circumstance to which they have consented. Trump is peeping at them in their private changing area, without warning or permission, and when they are actually naked (not almost). He is thus ogling them at a time they did not consent to, at a place they did not consent to, and under circumstances they did not consent to.

    When I go to the beach, I am also almost naked. I know I am being judged by those around me. I'm ok with it. I would not be ok with the director of national parks (or whoever oversees that particular beach) walking into the changing room and staring at me change.

    EDIT: Also slander requires for me to know what I am saying is not true. I do not know know it is not true. In fact, I am 90% certain it's true. Also he's a public figure and he made this a topic of the news by his own doing, so no slander.
     
  11. rdowns macrumors Penryn

    rdowns

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    #11

    Reading that Trump will blame this all on a Mexican billionaire today. Nothing like a good conspiracy theory to keep the rubes in check.
     
  12. yaxomoxay thread starter macrumors 68000

    yaxomoxay

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    #12
    Oh well, latin was mandatory when I went to school back in Italy... too bad they removed it when I was still in school. I don't remember much, but I am sure that I would've appreciated it more. One day I'll learn it well (for now I am going to learn some Spanish and then Portuguese).

    Where?

    A half-dozen women or so have come forth to claim it.

    Not true, and the girl doesn't say that she had no clothes.

    That's not similar to what the girl claims.
    (side note: hopefully you don't wear a Speedo...)

    You know it's not true. You can't claim he's a sexual predator. He was never convicted, and he's not in the database of registered sex offenders. It's well within your reasonable means to go and verify.

    PS> I truly enjoy discussing with you; you somewhat have a good way to point at possible holes in my reasoning, causing me to think again about what is discussed. We'll probably never agree on anything but I like how you challenge my way of thinking.
     
  13. twietee macrumors 603

    twietee

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    #13
    You must have missed the part where it was said to be ok since milanese fashionistas do it as well.
     
  14. oneMadRssn macrumors 68040

    oneMadRssn

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    #14
    I studied French in school, which was a terrible choice. Not only was it my lowest grade all the time and a drag on my GPA, it was also close to useless. I wish I had studied Spanish instead.

    "You know I'm automatically attracted to beautiful — I just start kissing them. It's like a magnet. Just kiss. I don't even wait. And when you're a star they let you do it. You can do anything. Grab them by the *****. You can do anything."

    The slight vulgarity can be explained away by locker-room talk or whatever. The underlying message cannot. He does what he wants to women, and he doesn't care about permission.

    Yes, this is correct. They are claims until we know for sure. But it is quite a few claims, where the claims vary in specifics except for the alleged perpetrator and the action, which aligns with what the alleged perpetrator said himself.

    "A former Miss New Hampshire told BuzzFeed News last spring that Donald Trump strolled through the dressing rooms backstage at the 2000 Miss USA pageant and stared at the naked contestants."
    "'The time that he walked through the dressing rooms was really shocking. We were all naked,' she said. Sullivan compared Trump to a 'creepy uncle.' 'He’d hug you just a little low on your back,' she said."
    https://www.buzzfeed.com/kendalltag...hem-changing?utm_term=.ro6D3dOYZV#.tbGKEyn0BL

    It's not identical, but what isn't similar? It's about consent and control. Individuals dictate where and when people can see then naked or nearly-naked. If someone disregards that consent and forces themselves into a room where they are not welcome to see those individuals naked or nearly naked, that is an awful intrusion at best and a sex crime at worst.

    Correct, Donald Trump is not yet a convicted sexual predator. As I said earlier, his m.o. is that of a sexual predator, ergo I have concluded that he is a sexual predator.

    It is similar to how you have concluded that Hillary Clinton mishandled classified information, despite the fact she was never convicted. :p

    I do too. :) I enjoy discussing things with folks to have an opposite viewpoint. In law school I joined the Federalist Society and went to all their events because everyone else was quite liberal and I wanted to explore viewpoints that contrasted my own, rather than echoed my own. I feel similarly about this forum, but also take comfort in that we do all at least agree on one thing, which is our appreciation for all things Apple.
     
  15. chown33 macrumors 604

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    #15
    Pay to play.
     
  16. yaxomoxay thread starter macrumors 68000

    yaxomoxay

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    Come on man! French is the language of diplomacy! Even your friend John Kerry is astoundingly fluent! ;) I can teach you Italian at most...

    Nothwistanding the fact that the language is absolutely disgusting, I think that it's only fair to include the full transcript. I will put it within the Spoliler tags because someone might not like it.

    DISCLAIMER: some readers might find the following transcript offensive.

    Donald Trump: You know and I moved on her actually. You know she was down on Palm Beach.

    Unknown: She used to be great. She's still very beautiful.

    Trump: I moved on her and I failed. I'll admit it.

    Trump: I did try and **** her. She was married.

    Unknown: That's huge news.

    Trump: No, no, Nancy. No this was — and I moved on her very heavily, in fact, I took her out furniture shopping. She wanted to get some furniture. I said I'll show you where they have some nice furniture. I took her out furniture. I moved on her like a bitch, but I couldn't get there, and she was married. Then all of a sudden I see her, she's now got the big phony tits and everything. She's totally changed her look.

    Bush: Sheesh, your girl's hot as ****. In the purple.

    Various: Whoa! Yes! Whoa!

    Bush: Yes! The Donald has scored. Whoa, my man!

    Trump: Look at you. You are a *****.

    Trump: Maybe it's a different one.

    Bush: It better not be the publicist. No, it's her. It's —

    Trump: Yeah, that's her. With the gold. I better use some Tic Tacs just in case I start kissing her. You know I'm automatically attracted to beautiful — I just start kissing them. It's like a magnet. Just kiss. I don't even wait. And when you're a star they let you do it. You can do anything.

    Bush: Whatever you want.

    Trump: Grab them by the *****. You can do anything.

    Bush: Yeah those legs, all I can see is the legs.

    Trump: Oh, it looks good.

    Bush: Come on, shorty.

    Trump: Oh, nice legs, huh?

    Bush: Oof, get out of the way, honey. Oh, that's good legs. Go ahead.

    Trump: It's always good if you don't fall out of the bus. Like Ford, Gerald Ford, remember?

    Bush: Down below. Pull the handle.

    Trump: Hello, how are you, hi.

    Arianne Zucker: Hi Mr. Trump. How are you?

    Trump: Nice seeing you. Terrific, terrific. You know Billy Bush?

    Bush: Hello, nice to see you. How you doing, Arianne?

    Zucker: I'm doing very well, thank you. Are you ready to be a soap star?

    Trump: We're ready, let's go. Make me a soap star.

    Bush: How about a little hug for the Donald? He just got off the bus.

    Zucker: Would you like a little hug, darling?

    Trump: Absolutely. Melania said this was OK.

    Bush: How about a little hug for the Bushy? I just got off the bus. Here we go. Excellent. Well you've got a nice co-star here.

    Trump: Good. After you.

    Trump: Come on, Billy, don't be shy.

    Bush: Soon as a beautiful woman shows up he just, he takes off. This always happens.

    Zucker: I'm sorry, come here.

    Bush: Let the little guy in here, come on.

    Zucker: Yeah, let the little guy in. How you feel now? Better? I should actually be in the middle.

    Bush: It's hard to walk next to a guy like this. Yeah, you get in the middle. There we go.

    Trump: Good. That's better.

    Zucker: This is much better. This is —

    Trump: That's better.

    Bush: Now, if you had to choose honestly between one of us. Me or the Donald?

    Trump: I don't know, that's tough competition.

    Zucker: That's some pressure right there.

    Bush: Seriously, you had to take one of us as a date.

    Zucker: I have to take the Fifth on that one. Yep, I'll take both.

    Trump: Which way?

    Zucker: Make a right. Here we go.

    Bush: Here he goes. I'm gonna leave you here. Give me my microphone.

    Trump: OK. OK. Oh, you're finished?

    Bush: You're my man. Yeah.

    Trump: Oh, good.

    Bush: I'm gonna go do our show.

    Zucker: Oh, you want to reset? OK.

    Now, I don't think that the above can lead to your conclusion, specifically for a line:

    Trump: (...) And when you're a star they let you do it (...)

    There is not a single instance in which DJT claims that he pushes himself beyond unacceptable boundaries, that is beyond rejection. He actually claims the opposite, that they let him do what he is (stupidly) bragging about. I challenge any prosecutor convincing a jury to convict someone of rape/sexual harassment if a girl "lets him do it" without any indication of a resistance from the girl. At this moment we don't even have a context as he claims two different things (he doesn't wait, but he also said that he had waited on that Nancy), and he claims two contradictory behavior (They just let him do it, but he also claims that he failed with the married woman). As far as we know he might just try to give 'the first kiss' which is well within his rights as an individual, as long as he doesn't force the other party in any way whatsoever, and as long as he keeps his distance after the possible refusal.
    Now, is what he is saying suspicious? Yes.
    is it worthy of an official probe? Heck yeah.

    Again, all those claims are definitely worth an official probe, and an investigation. I don't like that some supporters are simply demeaning all the testimonies. Some are 99% idiotic, but some have some merit and I, as a voter and a citizen, I want to see more clearly into the allegations.
    However, if we go with your reasoning we can also claim the opposite to discredit: why a worldwide famous billionaire, which was on TV every week well before the candidacy (and actually appeared on Home Alone 2), is suddenly accused of crimes committed during the decades, right before the elections when the biggest political damage is done. The Cosby parallel holds up to a limit; according to some of the allegiations a good part of the sexual harrassment events were made in public, no one was drugged, and it involved several people.

    Definetly worth checking, but as I stated somewhere else I myself walked in the dressing room of fashion shows.

    On this I absolutely agree. We just have to see if Trump actually crossed the border of consent. Certainly he behaved idiotically.

    Therefore this is an allegation, therefore you should state that it is merely an opinion/allegation. I shall call the FBI on ya ;)

    Nice try!!! ;) I never said that she's a criminal. I said that she committed the act ;) Trump kissed a girl? The act is committed. That doesn't mean that he's a criminal. ;)

    Same here, I try to join groups against my viewpoint, or listen to anyone who disagrees with me as long as he/she is respectful.
    For some reason after our conversation yesterday I watched part of Reversal of Fortune (with Jeremy Irons).
     
  17. rdowns macrumors Penryn

    rdowns

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    #17

    The only thing left to say is you're a sexual predator apologist.
     
  18. yaxomoxay thread starter macrumors 68000

    yaxomoxay

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    #18
    And you're boring.
     
  19. hulugu macrumors 68000

    hulugu

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    #19
    The statement alone is not enough, but a good prosecutor would play that tape during a trial covering one of at least 11 accusations lobbed at Trump in the last few months.

    Really, a good prosector just needs one girl to make an official charge and then she can bring up the other 10 to testify that they too were man-handled by the man, then play the tape until Trump's lawyer cries and asks for a plea deal.

    The woman above might not have a case, but it's clear that she sensed something gross about the man and felt uncomfortable.

    As a photo assistant, I worked on fitness-fashion shoots and have literally reposed a girl for the photographer. And, I never had a complaint because I treated them as human beings, even when they were naked or nearly naked.
     
  20. yaxomoxay thread starter macrumors 68000

    yaxomoxay

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    #20
    And that is fair game. Absolutely. I am not sure that it would be enough for a conviction (I am not saying that you're wrong, I simply have no idea how far a jury has to go before what you say become true), but it would certainly be important to know more details and do some cross-exhamination of the witnesses.
     
  21. jkcerda macrumors 6502

    jkcerda

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    #21
    pretty convenient to have things come up after he was nominated :p
     
  22. rdowns macrumors Penryn

    rdowns

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    #22
    The only reason the tape was found was because Billy Bush was bragging about it while covering the Olympics in Rio.
     
  23. hulugu macrumors 68000

    hulugu

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    #23
    Only based on the current information from interviews, I'd say the most damning part might be the consistency of the claims, illustrating a long-term modus operandi from Trump. On the other hand, witnesses and plaintiffs might fall apart.

    However, I think a prosecutor could build a pretty strong case and defense would have a hard time keeping the tape out of court.

    Apparently, Trump fought his own campaigns attempt to run their own oppositional research on him, thwarting any effort to suppress or mitigate these claims. This allows the campaign to be continuously surprised by issues that were clearly there last year.

    The really interesting part is how the GOP basically failed to look into one of their candidates. Which raises the question, is the GOP sure that Ted Cruz isn't the Zodiac Killer?
     
  24. jkcerda macrumors 6502

    jkcerda

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    #24
    I was NOT talking about the tape, rather the "victims" that have come forward.
     
  25. zioxide macrumors 603

    zioxide

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    #25
    The victims have all stated the tape and Trump's answer to Anderson Cooper in the debate enraged them and motivated them to come forward.

    I don't see why that's hard to understand.

    Everyone wants to read some conspiracy into it. Occam's razor says otherwise.
     

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