Sexism Alive And Well?

Huntn

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Pushback To Chief of Staff Kelly’s Comment That Women Used To Be sacred. This happened at Kelly’s press conference defending Supreme Leader’s botched condolence phone call to a military widow. It was mentioned as a side note, but is reflective of the view of when women enjoyed bird in guided cage status, still enjoyed by the women today in the Middle East. ;) :oops:

John Kelly Is Sad Women Are No Longer ‘Sacred.’ Women Are Not That Sad
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/john-kelly-women-sacred-humans_us_59e91025e4b0df10767be25e

It’s unclear what exactly Kelly was referring to. But his comment comes as numerous women have levied sexual harassment and assault allegations against film executive Harvey Weinstein, and women are sharing stories of abuse on social media under the hashtag #MeToo.

Kelly, however, seems to be missing the point of this conversation, which is that many women have no desire to be treated as separate and “sacred.” They simply want to be acknowledged as human beings who deserve basic respect and equality.

And things weren’t so great when women were supposedly treated as “sacred






Opinions
No, John Kelly, women should not be seen as ‘sacred’
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/no-john-kelly-women-should-not-be-seen-as-sacred/2017/10/20/3c05571c-b5d9-11e7-be94-fabb0f1e9ffb_story.html?utm_term=.c39f8ce75997

Yet there is a more disturbing aspect of Kelly’s remarks that risks getting lost in the outrage-du-jour news cycle that is the Trump administration. Kelly, I’m sure, intended his comment about women to be respectful, not dismissive.


But, speaking for this woman at least, that is not what women want or need. To be put on a pedestal also risks being kept in a box. In the good old days that Kelly mourns, women were not so much elevated by gender as constrained by it. Imagine how Kelly’s remarks sound to the female service member struggling to prove herself in the male-dominated military culture.
 
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Zombie Acorn

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When I was a kid growing up, a lot of things were sacred in our country,” he said. “Women were sacred and looked upon with great honor. That’s obviously not the case anymore, as we see from recent cases.”


It’s unclear what exactly Kelly was referring to. But his comment comes as numerous women have levied sexual harassment and assault allegations against film executive Harvey Weinstein, and women are sharing stories of abuse on social media under the hashtag #MeToo.
It's unclear what he was referring to, but let's reference a rapist right after his comment. Could be a little less transparent when you are trying to character assassinate someone.
 

Huntn

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It's unclear what he was referring to, but let's reference a rapist right after his comment. Could be a little less transparent when you are trying to character assassinate someone.
Why do you think women might be offended, over sensitive?
This is not based on making up something, it’s what he said. Well meaning or not, imo it reflects maybe an involuntary sexist attitude from our recent past. Ask the women who lived it, if they felt sacred, and how that felt exactly. I remember the comments when the first women showed up in the flight decks as pilots. Sacred seemed to mean get to the kitchen, take care of that mess, feed the kids too and while you’re at that, I’ve got a date with a football game.

As I said, it’s not unusual to hear Middle Eastern culture describe women as sacred along with being the unmentioned second class citizens not allowed to vote or drive cars.
 
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Zombie Acorn

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Why do you think women might be offended, over sensitive?
This is not based on making up something, it’s what he said. Well meaning or not, imo it reflects maybe an involuntary sexist attitude from our recent past. Ask the women who lived it, if they felt sacred, and how that felt exactly. I remember the comments when the first women showed up in the flightvdeck as pilots. Sacred seemed to mean get to the kitchen, take care of that mess, feed the kids too and while you’re at that, I’ve got a date with a football game.
Maybe someone should engage him in a conversation about what he meant by women being sacred instead of sensationalizing his wording by speculating the worst and then just happening to bring up a rapist in the same sentence?

Most people have a nostalgia of how past days used to be better without remembering the bad parts as well. All men were perfect honorable gentlemen and women were saints etc. The reality is we've had much fiercer women in the past than any of these SJWs who twist and complain about every imagined slight.

Is sexism alive and well? More focus should be on how a Hollywood predator was able to rape in the open while liberals said nothing to find out.
 

Huntn

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Maybe someone should engage him in a conversation about what he meant by women being sacred instead of sensationalizing his wording by speculating the worst and then just happening to bring up a rapist in the same sentence?

Most people have a nostalgia of how past days used to be better without remembering the bad parts as well. All men were perfect honorable gentlemen and women were saints etc. The reality is we've had much fiercer women in the past than any of these SJWs who twist and complain about every imagined slight.

Is sexism alive and well? More focus should be on how a Hollywood predator was able to rape in the open while liberals said nothing to find out.
Is your last statement a political equivalence observation? I think it’s been shown that people in power, mostly men, regardless their political leanings are capable of sexual misconduct based on a position of power, yes?
 
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Zombie Acorn

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Or Bill O'Reilly and Roger Ailes while the Right sat silent.
I'm not sure Bill O'Reilly's ordeal was an industry wide secret MSNBC or CNN would have ripped him up in a moments notice.
[doublepost=1508719506][/doublepost]
Is your last statement a political equivalence observation? I think it’s been shown that people in power, mostly men, regardless their political leanings are capable of sexual misconduct based on a position of power, yes?
The right isn't typically the side pushing a SJW agenda and pretending to be holier than thou on women's rights issues. To have this incident in your own backyard looks especially bad.
 
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Huntn

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I'm not sure Bill O'Reilly's ordeal was an industry wide secret MSNBC or CNN would have ripped him up in a moments notice.
[doublepost=1508719506][/doublepost]

The right isn't typically the side pushing a SJW agenda and pretending to be holier than thou on women's rights issues. To have this incident in your own backyard looks especially bad.
Does the Right even talk about it? An ideal yes, which I would not describe as holier than thou by any means just because it’s energetically vocalized. You try to hold it against the left if they push it? And Winestein keeps getting held up by conservatives as an example of a failure by the left, how does that work exactly? ... except he’s out on his ass. That’s your best example of a failure of liberals?

Anyway, I think you are trying to play politics with this issue, which does not really apply. I’ll condemn anyone who exploits people based on their power.

As I previously said, people in power face this temptation. The witnesses can either condemn it or ignore it, without trying to associate this behavior to those of the opposite Political side for some political points. Is it reduced to counting up the number of years Ailes, O’Reilly and Trump* (who has never been held accountable), got away with it as compared to Winestein?

* Trump is a wildcard, but wears a big R on his jacket. To be fair he’s claimed to be a Democrat, but resides in the eratic neither world representing himself, and the worst of both ends of the political spectrum, whichever suits him on a particular day.
 
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Zombie Acorn

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Does the Right even talk about it? An ideal yes, which I would not describe as holier than thou by any means just because it’s energetically vocalized. You try to hold it against the left if they push it? And Winestein keeps getting held up by conservatives as an example of a failure by the left, how does that work exactly? ... except he’s out on his ass. That’s your best example of a failure of liberals?

Anyway, I think you are trying to play politics with this issue, which does not really apply. I’ll condemn anyone who exploits people based on their power.

As I previously said, people in power face this temptation. The witnesses can either condemn it or ignore it, without trying to associate this behavior to those of the opposite Political side for some political points. Is it reduced to counting up the number of years Ailes, O’Reilly and Trump* (who has never been held accountable), got away with it as compared to Winestein?

* Trump is a wildcard, but wears a big R on his jacket. To be fair he’s claimed to be a Democrat, but resides in the eratic neither world representing himself, and the worst of both ends of the political spectrum, whichever suits him on a particular day.
The basics of my argument is: The leftists in Hollywood preach from on high, yet harbored a rapist for years. The number of women coming forward now is damning and it seems the status quo was that women did what they had to do to get parts. Hollywood should be apolitical, yet if you watch the award shows it's clear that they aren't.

This is a far cry from saying women used to be sacred, which begs the question of why they were included in the same sentence.
[doublepost=1508728825][/doublepost]
Using your own logic, why didn’t Fox News rip Harvey Weinstein in a moments notice?

I guess they must have been colluding.
Fox news isn't part of Hollywood.
 
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Huntn

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The basics of my argument is: The leftists in Hollywood preach from on high, yet harbored a rapist for years. The number of women coming forward now is damning and it seems the status quo was that women did what they had to do to get parts. Hollywood should be apolitical, yet if you watch the award shows it's clear that they aren't.

This is a far cry from saying women used to be sacred, which begs the question of why they were included in the same sentence.
[doublepost=1508728825][/doublepost]

Fox news isn't part of Hollywood.
No, no, no, You don't know who was doing the preaching and who was doing the harboring. The culprits were most likely silent about it. People knew about it, specifically women, but some men too, but they were too scared to ruin their careers. The activists were talking about it when they knew about it.

No, Fox News is the opposite side of the equation, that by omission, you seem to be defending, or at a minimum remaining silent about.
 
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citizenzen

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... Fox news isn't part of Hollywood.
o_O

Fox News is part of the Fox Broadcasting Company, which includes a TV entertainment network as well as 20th Century Fox, a major motion picture studio.

Screen Shot 2017-10-22 at 10.08.34 PM.png


Fox News has an L.A. bureau a mere 30 minutes from the heart of Hollywood.

And if you search "Hollywood" on the Fox News website, you get page, after page, after page of news stories. It's really amazing coverage for a news network that (you claim) doesn't have access to Hollywood.

I don't think your statement is accurate.

At all.
 
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mac_in_tosh

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The basics of my argument is: The leftists in Hollywood preach from on high, yet harbored a rapist for years. The number of women coming forward now is damning and it seems the status quo was that women did what they had to do to get parts. Hollywood should be apolitical, yet if you watch the award shows it's clear that they aren't.
Oh come on, the "rightists" do their fair share of preaching from on high, especially as they include evangelicals. And while Fox News was decrying the morals of the "left" they were a hotbed of harassment.

And where is it written that Hollywood should be apolitical? Don't citizens have the right to express opinions? Should Pat Robertson be apolitical? Should Clint Eastwood not have appeared at the GOP convention?
 

VulchR

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I am the son of a lawyer who sued the US Justice Department for sexual discrimination, successfully. When she won, she faced harassment, so she then sued them again, successfully. None of the men found to have broken the law were disciplined, fired, or prosecuted. My ex was denied a job at Harvard because she didn't code, when in fact she'd been programming since her PhD and the mostly male interview panel never asked her about this skill. My daughter is a medic but was told 'women do not make good surgeons' by a senior male medical professor. Just last week I witnessed a male in charge of the question session after an academic seminar cut off one woman in the middle of her question to a speaker, and not call on another woman academic who had raised her hand to ask a question. So, is sexism alive and well? Just off the top of my head, I'd say yes. Of course, the allegations of sexual harassment, discrimination, and assault in the entertainment industry reinforces this view, as does the fact that we elected a President who admitted sexually assaulting women.
 

Huntn

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I am the son of a lawyer who sued the US Justice Department for sexual discrimination, successfully. When she won, she faced harassment, so she then sued them again, successfully. None of the men found to have broken the law were disciplined, fired, or prosecuted. My ex was denied a job at Harvard because she didn't code, when in fact she'd been programming since her PhD and the mostly male interview panel never asked her about this skill. My daughter is a medic but was told 'women do not make good surgeons' by a senior male medical professor. Just last week I witnessed a male in charge of the question session after an academic seminar cut off one woman in the middle of her question to a speaker, and not call on another woman academic who had raised her hand to ask a question. So, is sexism alive and well? Just off the top of my head, I'd say yes. Of course, the allegations of sexual harassment, discrimination, and assault in the entertainment industry reinforces this view, as does the fact that we elected a President who admitted sexually assaulting women.
...He bragged about it, and did his minions hold him accountable? Yeah, they cheered him. :oops:
[doublepost=1508772872][/doublepost]Hey, @Zombie Acorn did you see this thread? ;)
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/bill-oreilly-settled-a-32-million-lawsuit-then-got-paid-by-fox-news.2079318/
 
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Scepticalscribe

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Excellent thread, @Huntn.

Ignore attempts by some to derail it into one that tries to condemn some on the 'left' for failing to call out an egregiously sexist Hollywood producer.

As a woman, I have encountered sexists on both the right and the left.

There are more of them on the right, because the world view of the right assigns a domestic role to women, circumscribes their access to the public space and sphere, and seeks to deny women access to many of what we see as basic human rights (not least - but not only - on reproductive matters).

But, yes, in my time as an academic I had some horribly sexist left wing male bosses and colleagues, and learnt the very valuable lesson that a good - supportive, and fair-minded - right-wing boss was far better than a dreadful and sexist left wing one.

Now, I had sexist right wing bosses, too........
 
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haxrnick

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Oh come on, the "rightists" do their fair share of preaching from on high, especially as they include evangelicals. And while Fox News was decrying the morals of the "left" they were a hotbed of harassment.
Alt-right not working like many hoped or is this a different group?
 

0098386

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Sexism alive and well? Well, yes. It was so sad seeing my female friends posting that “me too” thing recently. I had no idea with some, they kept it so secret.

It’s heartbreaking. You see people with mothers, daughters, being horrible towards women. Those men are such broken creatures to be sexist.
 

Plutonius

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for failing to call out an egregiously sexist Hollywood producer.
I agree that people are trying to deflect but please call it what it is. Weinstein is an accused rapist. Or do you subscribe to the theories that it's his victim's fault or that he can be excused because he's old and doesn't know better ?

Unlike racism, I think sexism is still prevalent but it's both on the left and right. I also don't think it's only men practicing it.
 

Scepticalscribe

macrumors Sandy Bridge
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I agree that people are trying to deflect but please call it what it is. Weinstein is an accused rapist. Or do you subscribe to the theories that it's his victim's fault or that he can be excused because he's old and doesn't know better ?

Unlike racism, I think sexism is still prevalent but it's both on the left and right. I also don't think it's only men practicing it.
Stop trying to deflect, @Plutonius, and please, do not write such an obtuse post.

Of course I do not subscribe to such tosh, not least because not one of my close female friends has not experienced sexual abuse, rape, or sexual harassment.

I do not wish the thread to be derailed by right wingers sneering at the fact that the left - because Harvey Weinstein was perceived to be a supporter of progressive causes - gave him a pass on his sexism and sexual abuse.