Should Obamacare subsidies be based on the honor system?

Should Obamacare subsideis be based on teh honor system?

  • Yes

    Votes: 2 14.3%
  • No

    Votes: 12 85.7%

  • Total voters
    14

tshrimp

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Mar 30, 2012
366
2,660
Should Obama care subsidies be based on the Honor System? I personally think this is not a good idea as when someone is getting something for free (or reduced cost by using other people money through the government) there needs to be checks and balances.

Do you think people will be honest, or abuse our government's trust (or hole in the system).


http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2013/07/06/not-qualified-for-obamacares-subsidies-just-lie-govt-to-use-honor-system-without-verifying-your-eligibility/


"...announcement that the government won’t be able to verify whether or not applicants for Obamacare’s insurance exchange subsidies are actually qualified for the aid,..."
 

citizenzen

macrumors 65816
Mar 22, 2010
1,433
11,628
I personally wouldn't use an honor system.

I would think it could be cross-checked against IRS records.

Is the honor system really what is being used here?

Or is this just more anti-obamacare propaganda?
 

lannister80

macrumors 6502
Apr 7, 2009
476
17
Chicagoland
Cost benefit analysis.

Is it more expensive to cross-check with IRS records than it is to tolerate some level of benefit fraud? Do whichever is cheaper.

PS - This "honor system" thing only applies in (a) the states that set up their own exchanges, and (b) only until 2015 (i.e. the rest of this year).

Also:
Should Obamacare subsideis be based on teh honor system?
My God, man, spell check!
 

0007776

Suspended
Jul 11, 2006
6,474
8,051
Somewhere
How much would it cost to use the IRS to verify all of this if they didn't want to use the honour system? My guess is a lot more than they would save by kicking the small number of people who try to scam the system.

That said we really should just get rid of the ACA and replace it with a single payer system as that would solve a lot of the issues with it.
 

MacNut

macrumors Core
Jan 4, 2002
21,550
7,802
CT
I am curious how this system will work out when these people with insurance need to use it. I looked at all of the plans for my age bracket and they start at $200 with $3000 deductibles. These are not affordable plans.
 

ElectronGuru

macrumors 65816
Sep 5, 2013
1,493
363
Oregon, USA
I am curious how this system will work out when these people with insurance need to use it. I looked at all of the plans for my age bracket and they start at $200 with $3000 deductibles. These are not affordable plans.
One of the (many) problems with US healthcare is that the costs have been hidden behind an employer vail. So as costs have increased, employees have seen many of the effects but not many of the causes. It's enough that you didn't get a raise, for example, but maybe your boss didn't share that info.

$10000/ year is not unusual, 2400 is a bargain.
 

Zombie Acorn

macrumors 65816
Feb 2, 2009
1,301
9,063
Toronto, Ontario
How much would it cost to use the IRS to verify all of this if they didn't want to use the honour system? My guess is a lot more than they would save by kicking the small number of people who try to scam the system.

That said we really should just get rid of the ACA and replace it with a single payer system as that would solve a lot of the issues with it.
The IRS already has a system in place to verify this for their student loan systems and its automated.
 

lannister80

macrumors 6502
Apr 7, 2009
476
17
Chicagoland
I am curious how this system will work out when these people with insurance need to use it. I looked at all of the plans for my age bracket and they start at $200 with $3000 deductibles. These are not affordable plans.
?? That's not a bad monthly price at all for a $3K deductible for an individual.

One key missing data point: what percentage is covered after your deductible is met at that price you pulled up? 70% 80% 90%?
 

Zombie Acorn

macrumors 65816
Feb 2, 2009
1,301
9,063
Toronto, Ontario
?? That's not a bad monthly price at all for a $3K deductible for an individual.

One key missing data point: what percentage is covered after your deductible is met at that price you pulled up? 70% 80% 90%?
3000 dollar deductible for insurance is good in the US now?

I guess if you had a 90k dollar operation, but for normal things like a broken bone you are going to get screwed hard.

That's pretty much just paying for disaster insurance for a young person, no way a typical 20-30 year old is going to hit 3000 in a year. Can't imagine paying 200 a month for that privilege.
 

MacNut

macrumors Core
Jan 4, 2002
21,550
7,802
CT
3000 dollar deductible for insurance is good in the US now?

I guess if you had a 90k dollar operation, but for normal things like a broken bone you are going to get screwed hard.

That's pretty much just paying for disaster insurance for a young person, no way a typical 20-30 year old is going to hit 3000 in a year. Can't imagine paying 200 a month for that privilege.
This is the problem, most young people that are healthy will not hit a 3000 cap. I had to have a endoscopy done. It cost 2800, guess what, just under my deductible. So guess who has to pay for it.
 

lannister80

macrumors 6502
Apr 7, 2009
476
17
Chicagoland
3000 dollar deductible for insurance is good in the US now?

I guess if you had a 90k dollar operation, but for normal things like a broken bone you are going to get screwed hard.
Yup, welcome to American "health care".

Although breaking your arm and going to the ER for a consult, X-ray, and short arm cast would probably run you $2K. 2/3 of the way to the deductible! :mad:
 

MacNut

macrumors Core
Jan 4, 2002
21,550
7,802
CT
Yup, welcome to American "health care".

Although breaking your arm and going to the ER for a consult, X-ray, and short arm cast would probably run you $2K. 2/3 of the way to the deductible! :mad:
It is really a nice bait and switch. Sign up for cheap healthcare to be counted into the system. Until you actually need to use it, then you can't afford it.

This plan works great if the young healthy people never get sick. Then it doesn't look so good.
 

lannister80

macrumors 6502
Apr 7, 2009
476
17
Chicagoland
It is really a nice bait and switch. Sign up for cheap healthcare to be counted into the system. Until you actually need to use it, then you can't afford it.
If you think a $3K deductible is bad, you should have seen the **** "insurance" people are complaining about having cancelled because it didn't meet Obamacare standards...

$3K isn't very much in the healthcare world. Any kind of even half-way major injury or incident will cost way more than that.
 

MacNut

macrumors Core
Jan 4, 2002
21,550
7,802
CT
If you think a $3K deductible is bad, you should have seen the **** "insurance" people are complaining about having cancelled because it didn't meet Obamacare standards...

$3K isn't very much in the healthcare world. Any kind of even half-way major injury or incident will cost way more than that.
People that don't have insurance have crap jobs and could not afford insurance. So how is a high deductible going to help that? If they can't afford 3000 for a procedure what is the point of having insurance?
 

Zombie Acorn

macrumors 65816
Feb 2, 2009
1,301
9,063
Toronto, Ontario
If you think a $3K deductible is bad, you should have seen the **** "insurance" people are complaining about having cancelled because it didn't meet Obamacare standards...

$3K isn't very much in the healthcare world. Any kind of even half-way major injury or incident will cost way more than that.
Its not much in the healthcare world when you are paying for million dollar surgeries, but telling our 20-30 olds to pony up 200 dollars a month so that they can pay for their own medical costs when they are already strapped for cash due to the trillion dollar student loan bubble and a sluggish economy/no upward mobility is a recipe for disaster.

You are basically one economic dip away from young people rioting in the streets.

And what are these insurance companies doing for the people? Not a god damn thing. You are paying them for the privilege to pay for your own healthcare. Time to cut out the middle man, UHC.
 

Happybunny

macrumors 68000
Sep 9, 2010
1,752
1,351
No systm which envolves tax money should be on the Honour System..:cool:

Back in the early 1960’s welfare was run on the honour system here in the Netherlands, after widespread abuse controls were installed. When asked why they had cheated the system the most common answer was because it was so dammed easy.:(
 

samiwas

macrumors 68000
Aug 26, 2006
1,575
3,518
Atlanta, GA
I am curious how this system will work out when these people with insurance need to use it. I looked at all of the plans for my age bracket and they start at $200 with $3000 deductibles. These are not affordable plans.
Huh. When my wife and I first got insurance some 6-7 years ago, I was in my early 30s, and she was in her mid 20s. For the two of us it was almost $900 a month with a $2500 deductible, and 80% coinsurance. By the time we had a kid, and ended up changing insurance, it was up to almost $1,200 a month, still with $2,500 deductible. That was two years ago. It's probably up to $1,400 a month by now. It was literally the only plan offered in Georgia for individuals wanting to have children. The only plan. The only other option was to move to another state or pay for everything out of pocket.

We switched to my union's group health plan which just this quarter got raised to about $1,200 a month. That's with no deductible, and a family plan, but that's some $14,400 a year…with coinsurance on top of that.

$200 a month with a $3k deductible is not a bad deal.

This is the problem, most young people that are healthy will not hit a 3000 cap. I had to have a endoscopy done. It cost 2800, guess what, just under my deductible. So guess who has to pay for it.
Funny you should say that. We constantly hear from the conservatives about how "they don't want to pay for anyone else's healthcare", but when it comes time to pay for yourself, "Well, guess who has to pay for my injury!" And before you say "It's insurance paying for it!"…who pays the insurance company to pay for it? Everyone does.

Its not much in the healthcare world when you are paying for million dollar surgeries, but telling our 20-30 olds to pony up 200 dollars a month so that they can pay for their own medical costs when they are already strapped for cash due to the trillion dollar student loan bubble and a sluggish economy/no upward mobility is a recipe for disaster.
Indeed it is. The other option is to have others pay for it. But that seems to go against conservative mantra. But they are the ones who support the insurance industry. Odd how that works.

And what are these insurance companies doing for the people? Not a god damn thing. You are paying them for the privilege to pay for your own healthcare.
Well, we can all agree about that. American insurance companies are the devil incarnate. Why anyone thinks that the American insurance system is a model for efficient health coverage is beyond me. And how anyone thinks that "the free market" would fix it is even worse.

I will likely go nearly bankrupt in the next couple of years due to my child's medical condition, which is only partially covered by insurance. In fact, they have said that they might pay for what amounts to maybe 25% of it. If I went with the full procedures being recommended, insurance would pay less than 15%. I don't think my out-of-pocket maximums apply. Insurance is awesome.

Time to cut out the middle man, UHC.
Why this is such a bad thing to so many Americans honestly baffles me. Why can't we have a serious discussion about this?
 

0007776

Suspended
Jul 11, 2006
6,474
8,051
Somewhere
People that don't have insurance have crap jobs and could not afford insurance. So how is a high deductible going to help that? If they can't afford 3000 for a procedure what is the point of having insurance?
It at least keeps them from having to file for bankruptcy and having one large health problem completely destroy their financial future. It's not a good plan, but it's better than the horrible ones that don't cover anything at all that people are complaining about losing, an until we get the political will to actually put in a single payer system it's the best we can get.
 

Happybunny

macrumors 68000
Sep 9, 2010
1,752
1,351
Just to let you know how tough it is here in Europe.

My total health insurance is €107 per month that is for full medical, dental, and for coverage in all Europe. I pay an extra €10 when I travel outside the EU for full coverage.
 

tshrimp

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Mar 30, 2012
366
2,660
Just to let you know how tough it is here in Europe.

My total health insurance is €107 per month that is for full medical, dental, and for coverage in all Europe. I pay an extra €10 when I travel outside the EU for full coverage.
Just wondering how high your taxes are over there?

Also here in the US my coverage is $0 per month for full medical, dental, vision. 90/10 family plan.
 

MacNut

macrumors Core
Jan 4, 2002
21,550
7,802
CT
Huh. When my wife and I first got insurance some 6-7 years ago, I was in my early 30s, and she was in her mid 20s. For the two of us it was almost $900 a month with a $2500 deductible, and 80% coinsurance. By the time we had a kid, and ended up changing insurance, it was up to almost $1,200 a month, still with $2,500 deductible. That was two years ago. It's probably up to $1,400 a month by now. It was literally the only plan offered in Georgia for individuals wanting to have children. The only plan. The only other option was to move to another state or pay for everything out of pocket.

We switched to my union's group health plan which just this quarter got raised to about $1,200 a month. That's with no deductible, and a family plan, but that's some $14,400 a year…with coinsurance on top of that.

$200 a month with a $3k deductible is not a bad deal.



Funny you should say that. We constantly hear from the conservatives about how "they don't want to pay for anyone else's healthcare", but when it comes time to pay for yourself, "Well, guess who has to pay for my injury!" And before you say "It's insurance paying for it!"…who pays the insurance company to pay for it? Everyone does.



Indeed it is. The other option is to have others pay for it. But that seems to go against conservative mantra. But they are the ones who support the insurance industry. Odd how that works.



Well, we can all agree about that. American insurance companies are the devil incarnate. Why anyone thinks that the American insurance system is a model for efficient health coverage is beyond me. And how anyone thinks that "the free market" would fix it is even worse.

I will likely go nearly bankrupt in the next couple of years due to my child's medical condition, which is only partially covered by insurance. In fact, they have said that they might pay for what amounts to maybe 25% of it. If I went with the full procedures being recommended, insurance would pay less than 15%. I don't think my out-of-pocket maximums apply. Insurance is awesome.



Why this is such a bad thing to so many Americans honestly baffles me. Why can't we have a serious discussion about this?
I have no problem paying into a system, but why should I have to pay again to get a procedure. Either cut out premiums and just charge us a flat rate for everything or stop double dipping. There is no reason to pay upwards of 500 a month and then have to pay a deductible. Either add the premiums paid into the deductible or stop charging a monthly fee.
 

Happybunny

macrumors 68000
Sep 9, 2010
1,752
1,351
Just wondering how high your taxes are over there?

Also here in the US my coverage is $0 per month for full medical, dental, vision. 90/10 family plan.
I paid the top rate of tax 52%, it has since decreased to 49%

Just one question how can you not be paying for health care, when some of the posters are paying $1200 or more per month.:confused::confused::confused: