Should POTUS ask for Loyalty from the Director of the FBI?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Huntn, May 13, 2017.

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Should POTUS ask for Loyalty from the Director of the FBI?

Poll closed Monday at 6:42 AM.
  1. Personal loyalty? Never. Loyalty to the country? No, instead it's firing time.

    21 vote(s)
    87.5%
  2. Maybe, if you have doubt about the Director of the FBI.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Loyalty is a great question to always ask the head of the FBI over dinner.

    3 vote(s)
    12.5%
  1. Huntn, May 13, 2017
    Last edited: May 13, 2017

    Huntn macrumors G5

    Huntn

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    #1
    What do you all think about the accusation of Trump asking for loyalty from the Director of the FBI?

    This is completely unbelievable (except for Trump) and unacceptable. Did you hear the excerpt from the Fox News Interview, where Trump says that asking for loyalty is a good question, and then when asked if he did (?), he denied it, but then went on to expound about how he thought loyalty to his country is a good question. Except if he asked, he was asking for himself. Really for a person in this position? Un ******* believable! Trump is a scheming, liar who is hiding something. Otherwise why not just let the investigation roll on?

    Here are the problems:
    • If he asked for loyalty, he was asking for personal loyalty. Agreed? Why would you ever ask the frick'n Director of the FBI for loyalty to his country? If the integrity of the FBI Director is in question, there should be no such question, just firing and indictment. I'll clarify, that by all indications this is not the case with the Comey firing, if asked, it was for personal loyalty to the Don.
    • What does personal loyalty mean? In mafia terms, I'd equate this to corruption and subverting the law to protect the boss.
     
  2. MacNut macrumors Core

    MacNut

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    #2
    Well when someone is buying you dinner you want to make sure you get sex after.
     
  3. Thomas Veil macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

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    #3
    I agree. Unless you have good reason to suspect he's actually a traitor or saboteur, you don't need to ask a sitting FBI director if he's loyal to his country. So Trump was asking for personal loyalty. Totally out of line.
     
  4. arkitect macrumors 601

    arkitect

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    #4
    Isn't that when you are buying the dinner?
    At least that's how it was way back in my dating days. :)
     
  5. darksithpro, May 13, 2017
    Last edited: May 13, 2017

    darksithpro macrumors regular

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    #5

    Why would he ask the head of the Fed who was potentially investigating him, for his loyalty? You'd have to be a complete moron to do that. Because this is hearsay I'm going to give him the benefit of doubt and say he didn't do this. Even the dumbest politicians we have would never try this...
     
  6. jkcerda macrumors 6502

    jkcerda

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    #6
    SO GLAD he beat Hillary :D
    nothing wrong with asking. FBI just like EVERYONE else should be loyal to the COUNTRY.
     
  7. Night Spring macrumors G5

    Night Spring

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    #7
    But it's not hearsay, right? Trump brought it up himself in the Fox interview? I'm not exactly clear on that, as I haven't seen the interview myself.
     
  8. MacNut macrumors Core

    MacNut

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    #8
    Well Trump did buy him dinner, of course we paid for it.
     
  9. Huntn thread starter macrumors G5

    Huntn

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    #9
    Well you'd have to compare Trump with Comey and ask which one is a moron and which is lying? Trump's defense of asking the question about loyalty (Fox News interview) while in same breath he denied asking it is so telling psychologically. This adds weight to the argument that the question was asked.

    Plus there other suspicious things, like why lie about the reason for firing him, the story changed drastically from day 1 to day 2? And then other tidbits like Comey supposedly asked to have dinner at the White House, as mentioned on TV who does that? ...and then asks to keep his job? The Director had a 10 year term. The assumption would be that he would keep his job, not come to the White House and out of the blue ask to keep it, especially after all the kudos Trump had thrown at him for beating on Hillary.

    My opinion, the man is in over his head. I can only guess that the corporate real estate environment is so different than politics and holding the position of President. He thinks he can sign edicts, lie about virtually every issue he's involved with, and coerce Washington to jump to his tune.

    The real problem for Trump even if you don't think he is a psycho, is that he is out of his element with very few dedicated allies. The GOP is mostly holding their noses and when they have gagged enough, based on his self destructive behavior, all self inflicted, they will bail on him. And regarding that man's mouth, think about the saying, loose lips sink ships. I thank the higher power whatever that is, that his mouth is so huge, that he is so transparent. Trump is the ship that he'll sink.
     
  10. vrDrew macrumors 65816

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    #10
    Absolutely not.

    Federal employees swear allegiance to the United States, and to uphold its laws and Constitution. There is absolutely no place for anyone to demand or expect written or oral affirmations of personal loyalty to themselves. Especially the President.

    And we've seen foreshadowing of this sort of egregious behavior from Trump before: When he asked rally attendees to swear loyalty to him, to promise to vote for him - without condition - in upcoming primaries.

    Not to go all Godwin on anyone, but the requirement that German soldiers swear personal loyalty to the person of Adolf Hitler - rather than Germany or its Constitution - caused no end of problems for that country. German military officers, the only people in a position to restrain or remove Hitler from office, felt honor-bound by their loyalty oaths not to act.

    It is fine to share a friendly or collegial relationship with one's boss. But demanding "personal loyalty" is an invitation for corruption at the highest level.
     
  11. Huntn thread starter macrumors G5

    Huntn

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    #11
    That story came from the NYT from associates of Comey or possibly Comey himself, who reportedly told them Trump asked for his loyalty. Then when asked about it (Fox News Interview) Trump first said it was a good question, then denied he asked it, and then defended it, but switched it to a version where instead of asking for personally loyalty, he was asking the FBI Director for loyalty to his country! How stupid does Trump think his audience is? We are not all Trumpets. :rolleyes:
     
  12. yaxomoxay macrumors 68000

    yaxomoxay

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    #12
    No.
    Loyalty to the Office of the President is implied for all federal, state, and even municipal employees. It should never be confused with personal loyalty to the person sitting in the Oval Office.
    We - public employees - serve at the pleasure of our Chief/Director and we follow and obey the legislature (be either Congress or a City Council). That, again, should never be confused with loyalty to the people.

    And in any case the problem of a leader is not earning loyalty - which can be easily bought - but respect.
     
  13. MadeTheSwitch macrumors 6502a

    MadeTheSwitch

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    #13
    I didn't understand this polls first choice.

    My answer is that a President should never demand loyalty from someone who in fact may be investigating him or her. It's inappropriate. Like a mob boss asking loyalty from the local police chief.
     
  14. IronWaffle macrumors 6502

    IronWaffle

    #14
    "Loyalty to the Nation all the time, loyalty to the Government when it deserves it." -- Mark Twain

    Even with that pithy response, I'd say that, as with all memorable and concise quotations, "terms and conditions may apply." Any such oath also demands having a well-calibrated moral compass and critical thinking skills -- oddly enough, two ingredients seemingly missing from our current Commander-in-Chief. Hm, did he have an oath? I forget.

     
  15. mudslag macrumors regular

    mudslag

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    #15

    Yes it's very wrong to ask.
     
  16. jkcerda macrumors 6502

    jkcerda

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    #16
    Why? They can ask him as well :D
     
  17. vrDrew macrumors 65816

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    #17
    It is a disgrace (another, predictable one) that Trump doesn't even begin to understand the impropriety of even asking for assurances of personal loyalty from a subordinate who is being paid by the US taxpayer.

    It would be improper to demand personal loyalty from the White House butler, let alone the Director of the FBI. The Secret Service agents who protect the President, the men and women who quite literally are prepared to take a bullet to protect their charge, do not do so out of personal affection or admiration for the individual, but because it is their sworn duty to protect the person of the Nation's Chief Executive, whoever that person might be. Start making that loyalty personal, and you risk compromising the whole thing.

    This story makes me wonder which of Trump's appointments have sworn personal loyalty to Donald Trump. Because the thought that such people might exist, in positions of real military, law-enforcement, or executive power ought to scare the hell out of anyone.

    If asked for a statement of personal loyalty, the only correct answer is the: "I promise to follow and obey all lawful orders I receive from you or other appropriate superiors to the best of my ability. My loyalty and oath, however, is given to the Nation and its Constitution."
     
  18. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #18
    Loyalty to doing the job should be all that is required.
     
  19. LizKat macrumors 68040

    LizKat

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    #19
    It's Trump's world view that's the problem. There's Donald Trump and then there's everyone else, and the "everyone else" are all presumed capable of disappointing him. To disappoint him, from his point of view, is a mistake from which no one fully recovers, even if there's some pragmatic kiss and make up scenarios in there somewhere for assorted expedient purposes. He doesn't forget a perceived injury or slight. He may end up making Nixon's vindictive capacities seem amateurish.

    Ever notice how Trump deals with people with whom he's had past differences? Even if they are supposedly patched up, say for example with Paul Ryan from before Trump won the election, Trump always manages to get some little dig in there to remind everyone that the other party once upon a time went off the rails, just so you know "the truth" about what a fail that person was at some point (and so always will be in Trump's mind). And never mind whatever Trump may have said about that person while the feud or quarrel was active, e.g. his behavior with Ted Cruz during the campaign. To Trump, that person had that coming, even if in reality it was some bizarre overreaction to a perceived disrespect.

    I'm reminded of that old wisdom that Downton Abbey's Anna offered to her husband in one episode: "Never make an enemy by mistake." Well dealing with Trump is one of those situations where it's hard to manage that scenario to perfection, since he's so super-sensitive to any suggestion that he's wrong. It can even be a third party assessment that he was bested in some situation that sets him off later on. Who knows what he thought about his interview with Lester Holt, for instance, immediately after it was over, but by the time the press got done analyzing it, Holt had probably made Trump's list of enemies, if he wasn't already on it.

    I think Trump's inability to acknowledge his own human imperfection is part of why he ends up lying so often. He's far more likely to say "That's not what I said, I never said that" than he is to say "You know, I gave that some more thought, and I've changed my mind."

    To Trump, when he is walking something back, what he says probably seems to him like "the same idea" as acknowledging he made an impulsive statement and is walking it back. He just can't simply say that; it would mean he was wrong initially, and being wrong is being a loser and he cannot be a loser. It's part of why he gets annoyed at the press for calling him out when he denies something he said in public that's on videotape. He said it, "and so what?" and if now he's saying something else, to him the first thing is gone, as if it never happened.

    He's in a kind of permanent "now" and it's pretty much free of context, a kind of reality bubble of his own making; it's not at all the same thing as what most of the rest of us mean when we talking about living in the now. His version is a great way to blitz through a day, but certainly lays waste to select groups of facts --history in the making!-- in the meantime. No wonder he keeps messing up. He doesn't remember what has gone before so he does it again and only the details are different, the process and the results end up about the same. Outrage and confusion and chaos ensue, whether over trivia or really big deals, and no matter which, he treats them with equal vigor. The petty stuff he tweets about sometimes is enough to make you wonder if he has any sense of proportion at all. I'm starting to think not. He's made his life into one of those moonlit landscapes where rabbits and bears can look the same in that cold, weird light, as long as they're not together. What a sad way to live, not even knowing when something doesn't matter. And the flip side, not knowing when something does matter? Far worse for us, potentially.

    Trump sometimes calls to my mind that movie War Games, where the computer has agreed to play a game and chooses "Global Thermonuclear War" off the menu rather than "Tic Tac Toe"; later on as the game proceeds and things seem to be getting a bit out of hand, the kid asks the computer "But wait, is this real or is it a game?" and the computer parries with "What's the difference?" since it was not programmed to make that consideration.

    What I want to know is whether there's a workable shutdown sequence if we need it. The GOP sits on its hands like this is some kind of new normal. It's chilling if you ask me. They're treating Trump's antics like a game they can manage. I'm not so sure.

    And no, of course the president should not be asking for loyalty from the head of the FBI. If he did ask, he was asking for personal loyalty, since it's all personal with Trump. Honestly when you think what Comey's fits and starts over Clinton's emails did to the track of her campaign at the end there, how could Trump even imagine Comey leaned left anyway lol. I don't believe Comey acted out of partisan feeling last summer, but whatever his motivation, it gave Trump a boost. What more could Trump want? Asking Comey later for loyalty as code for "get off my case about Russia" would be a disgrace. If Trump did that and that's what he meant, it's probably as close to obstruction of justice as he can get without arriving there.
     
  20. Scepticalscribe Contributor

    Scepticalscribe

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    #20
    Superb post, @LizKat, and beautifully written.

    As for the original question: No, of course the POTUS should not ask for Loyalty (especially if it is to the person of the president and not the office of president, or the constitution) from the Director of the FBI.
     
  21. niploteksi, May 14, 2017
    Last edited: May 14, 2017

    niploteksi macrumors regular

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    #21
    When someone buys me dinner I expect it's for a good reason. I'd be mighty upset if they just upped and left after dinner.
    --- Post Merged, May 14, 2017 ---
    Well put. An egocentric narcissist with an empathy disorder and fear of being humiliated. I've come across people like this before, and usually they have had a very damaging upbringing with emotionally stunted parents.

    Trump is a sociopath with psychopathic tendencies, as many other corporate leaders are. Every slight is a grave personal insult and an attack on his integrity.
     
  22. Solomani macrumors 68030

    Solomani

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    #22
    The POTUS should demand a pledge of allegiance to his Cult of Personality. Just like Hitler demanded with 1930s Germany and his Hitler Youth. They pledged loyalty not to the German nation, nor to the good of the German People, they pledged allegiance to a single person, their Führer.

    /sarcasm
    --- Post Merged, May 14, 2017 ---
    FBI Director should be loyal to the country, not loyal to a Clown-in-Chief.
     
  23. pdqgp macrumors 68020

    pdqgp

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    #23
    waiting on proof that he asked for himself let alone at all. chances are the conversation was recorded.

    still waiting on any actual proof of the Russia LOL let alone proof here. not opinions, proof. in terms of the investigation, it is rolling on. in fact there are several rolling on. still waiting after what 10 months for any of them to provide ANY actual proof of anything.
     
  24. HEK Suspended

    HEK

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    #24
    It's call obstruction of justice.....impeachable offense. Imagine the uproar from Repubublicans if a Democractic President has said this.
     
  25. mac_in_tosh macrumors regular

    mac_in_tosh

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    #25
    Based on your avatar, your dating days were in the 17th century.
     

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