Should There Be Payback ?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Plutonius, Jan 3, 2017.

  1. Plutonius macrumors 603

    Plutonius

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    #1
    It has been reported that Finland is starting a pilot program where they pay people in Finland a guaranteed income no matter what the people's income, wealth, or job status is. Finland eventually wants the program country wide for all the people there.

    I'm more in favor of traditional welfare with strong incentives for people to find work and get off welfare where only the people who need the money get it. The amount of money given out is currently small but I wonder if they will be forced to raise it when people complain it's too low.

    Is this a good idea by Finland ?
     
  2. WarHeadz macrumors 6502a

    WarHeadz

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    #2
    As artificial intelligence and automation take more and more jobs from humans, this will probably be the only option in the future.
     
  3. DearthnVader macrumors 6502

    DearthnVader

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    #3
    No, when people can no longer contribute to the tax base, we should throw them to the wolves.:rolleyes:

     
  4. steve knight macrumors 68020

    steve knight

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    #4
    Bye bye trump.
     
  5. thewitt macrumors 68020

    thewitt

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    #5
    This will be interesting to watch, but it cannot possibly work to remove incentives and expect improved individual performance.
     
  6. thewitt macrumors 68020

    thewitt

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    #6
    Obsessed are we?
     
  7. DearthnVader macrumors 6502

    DearthnVader

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    #7
    It's just more redistribution of wealth, via governance, and of course, government takes it's cut.
     
  8. DrewDaHilp1 macrumors 6502a

    DrewDaHilp1

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    #8
    Say it goes Nationwide, congrats Finland the cost of living just went up by however much you're paying.
     
  9. yaxomoxay macrumors 68000

    yaxomoxay

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    #9
    Well, that was actually funny ;) Made me laugh!
    --- Post Merged, Jan 3, 2017 ---
    Why waste them to the wolves?
    We can make a business out of it, inspired by ancient traditional practices...

    [​IMG]

    $10 General admission, $1200 with backstage pass.
     
  10. DearthnVader macrumors 6502

    DearthnVader

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    #10
    So, bread and circus then.
     
  11. yaxomoxay macrumors 68000

    yaxomoxay

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    #11
    I think that we can't judge Finnish solutions for the economy. In general I would say that it is a bad idea, but I have absolutely no clue on the Finnish economy, schooling, welfare, and quality of living. I visited Finland many years ago, but that doesn't make me an expert. It's their system, they have the right to try out what might work for them.
    --- Post Merged, Jan 3, 2017 ---
    As long as I am the Dana White of the new Circus Maximus
     
  12. vrDrew macrumors 65816

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    #12
    Why do you feel that way?

    There is certainly an argument to be made that a guaranteed minimum income acts as something of a disincentive to work, and moreover could serve as an incentive for unwanted immigration.

    But there is also a tremendous upside in things like child health and education (parents can take time off to care for young children.) In reducing crime. In fostering innovation and entrepreneurship. In the arts.

    Many countries (including the United States) provide guaranteed services such as education. But also police and fire services. Transportation and national parks.

    We spend many thousands of dollars, per person, to provide schools, cops, roads, and parks to people, regardless of their employment status. What is so inherently bad about providing people with a direct cash benefit?
     
  13. Plutonius thread starter macrumors 603

    Plutonius

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    #13
    I agree but, in the article, they claim that other countries are looking into it so Finland is only the first. When the Democrats get control back in 4 - 8 years, I can see this being considered in the US especially if other countries have it.
     
  14. yaxomoxay macrumors 68000

    yaxomoxay

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    #14
    I do not oppose welfare in general, and I am a strong supporter of public schools (contrary to many of my conservative friends), or public transporation.
    The Finnish idea is not an enlarged welfare, but a de facto nationwide salary to virtually everyone. It's a falsification of the economical parameters, and of the economical environment as a whole. $2000 salary to each citizen will cause quite a disturbance in real estate, for example.
     
  15. Plutonius thread starter macrumors 603

    Plutonius

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    #15
    That's what I believe will happen.
     
  16. yaxomoxay macrumors 68000

    yaxomoxay

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    #16
    Finland's population is less than 6 millions, less than the DFW metroplex or NYC. A bit more than Milan and Rome, only three times the city of Paris. Its economy is very limited. The experiment might work - I don't think so in the long run - in that limited environment, but it won't work in any of the big countries due to the complexities of the population and the economies.
     
  17. steve knight macrumors 68020

    steve knight

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    #17
    nope just saying it like it is.
     
  18. unlinked macrumors 6502a

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    #18
    I don't think people are disincentivised to work by the provision of police , parks or roads. Maybe that is just because I was raised with the expectation that government provide those things. You could probably make a better argument with housing and food but I think stopping people starving is a fairly well accepted part of what people accept from the welfare state.
     
  19. yaxomoxay macrumors 68000

    yaxomoxay

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    #19
    Actually I think that one way to reduce poverty is to have incentives for supporting those local programs. Municipalities could ask for help with less requirements to people to clean up roads, buildings, etc. for a decent pay and maybe some sort of training that could be used in the work place.
     
  20. SLC Flyfishing Suspended

    SLC Flyfishing

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    #20
    How do we do that when a significant portion (perhaps even a majority) don't pay many thousands of dollars per person in the form of income taxes? Some pay zero?

    How do we do it? How is this sustainable?
     
  21. unlinked macrumors 6502a

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    #21
    I can see the point of guaranteed income from the point of view of simplifying systems of support and coping as automation kills off the labour market but I kinda wonder what sort of fossilised class structure you end up with when the bottom 20,40,60,80,95,99% of people aren't working. Also I'm not really big on the fake capitalism and think governments should provide services not money generally.
     
  22. citizenzen Suspended

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    Mar 22, 2010
    #22
    We are still far from even obtaining universal healthcare.

    I think it's pretty well established by now that the U.S. will lag well behind Europe/Scandinavia when it comes to social programs.
     
  23. WarHeadz macrumors 6502a

    WarHeadz

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    #23
    Don't be surprised if China experiments with this in the near future. They have an ever growing population, brand new ghost cities that were built for the sole purpose of creating jobs but standing empty, and their factories will be completely automated in the near future. They're going to have to keep their population out of poverty somehow.
     
  24. yaxomoxay macrumors 68000

    yaxomoxay

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    #24
    There is no way that a large country can input such a large amount of liquidity for a long time without serious repercussions to the economy. That's recipe for irreversible hyper-inflation.
     
  25. WarHeadz macrumors 6502a

    WarHeadz

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    #25
    As long as automation continues gaining ground at this rate, there is just no way to keep that many billions of people gainfully employed.

    Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
     

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