Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by obeygiant, May 15, 2007.
the smoking gun
So, Himmler, is the Red Cross still complaining that Auschwitz shouldn't even exist?
Yes, mein Führer, and the Jews even have the audacity to complain about the excellent shower facilities we have so kindly provided for them!
"Red Cross: Guantanamo Tactics 'Tantamount to Torture'
WASHINGTON - The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) has accused the U.S. military of using tactics "tantamount to torture" on prisoners at the U.S. Navy base in Guantanamo Bay, The New York Times reported on Tuesday.
A detainee is escorted by guards at Guantanamo Bay. In a confidential report the International Committee of the Red Cross said it found prisoner abuse that amounted to 'a form of torture' at the US military facility, The New York Times reported (AFP/File/Roberto Schmidt)
An ICRC inspection team that spent most of June at Guantanamo Bay reported the use of psychological and sometimes physical coercion on the prisoners, the newspaper said.
It said it had recently obtained a memorandum that quoted the report in detail and listed its major findings.
In Geneva, the ICRC said it would neither confirm nor deny the New York Times report -- in which allegations of treatment tantamount to torture go further than what the neutral intermediary has publicly stated before about inmates held at Guantanamo.
But, in a statement, the Geneva-based ICRC said it remained concerned that "significant problems regarding conditions and treatment at Guantanamo Bay have not yet been adequately addressed," and it was pursuing talks with U.S. authorities.
More than 500 people are being held at the U.S. base in Cuba, detained during the 2001 U.S. war to oust al Qaeda and the ruling Taliban from Afghanistan and in other operations in the U.S. war against terror. The ICRC began visits in early 2002.
The Times said the U.S. government and military officials received the ICRC report in July and rejected its findings.
Asked by the Times about the report, a Pentagon spokesman said in a statement: "The United States operates a safe, humane and professional detention operation at Guantanamo that is providing valuable information in the war on terrorism."
The Times said the Red Cross investigators had found a system devised to break the will of prisoners through "humiliating acts, solitary confinement, temperature extremes, use of forced positions."
"The construction of such a system, whose stated purpose is the production of intelligence, cannot be considered other than an intentional system of cruel, unusual and degrading treatment and a form of torture," the Times quoted the report as saying.
Beatrice Megevand-Roggo, the committee's delegate-general for Europe and the Americas, told the newspaper the ICRC could not comment on the report submitted to the U.S. government.
The ICRC has agreed to keep its findings confidential.
Human rights groups and lawyers have criticized the United States for holding prisoners at the base indefinitely and most without charges or legal representation.
The U.S. government has taken the position that the detainees are "enemy combatants" and not entitled to the protections normally given to prisoners of war.
It has begun a process of holding individual trials, called tribunals, for each prisoner to determine their status.
Additional reporting by Stephanie Nebehay in Geneva"
Red Cross - those commie terrorist-loving dhimmi bastards!
Are you guaranteeing that this is real? I thought nothing was ever to be leaked about what went on during the trials. Sounds highly dubious at best and most likely simply propaganda to keep the hearts of Americans hardened against "the infidel".
Anyone who believes a government leak from the Guantanamo trials, I have a mansion in Baghdad I'll sell you for a good price.....
Sure it can be real. Don't you understand how propaganda works? You can always find one or two guys in any large group who are plain crazy, and then all you need is do some fancy editing, and try to smear the rest of the prisoners by pretending that this is representative. And guess what, it works!
You know, how I made the joke in the post above about Nazi concentration camps and the Red Cross? It was based on truth. The Nazis actually managed to fool the Red Cross into believing the concentration camps were A-OK! If the Nazis can be good enough with propaganda to fool the Red Cross about concentration camps, then surely this administration - if not quite competent enough to fool the Red Cross, can at least fool some American people (the right wing nuts, of course, not normal people). Here's the Red Cross fooled by Nazis about concentration camps - link well worth reading:
Among the Nazi concentration camps, Buchenwald is famous for its human lamp shades; Auschwitz is noted for its gas chambers and Bergen-Belsen will be forever remembered as the place where British bulldozers shoved the emaciated corpses of the deliberately starved inmates into mass graves. Theresienstadt's claim to fame is the beautification program (Verschönerung) in which the Nazis cleaned up the ghetto in preparation for a visit on June 23, 1944 by two Swiss delegates of the International Red Cross and two representatives of the government of Denmark.
Isn't it obvious? One guy might be a jerk. So there's no scandal here. We're obviously not torturing anyone, nor holding them against their wills without trials for years even though some are innocent because someone found one douchebag who may want a DVD player and some scented deodorant if he exists.
Well, I know I'm placated.
Below is a bit more balanced article about the same guy. Funny, how the wingnuts jumped on this story to try to score political points, and the more one actually investigates the story, the worse it looks for the wingnut case. Just like everything connected with this massive war crime and gangster administration. It's like trying to find something good about the Nazis, and then, suprise, surprise, all you find is evil. Pathetic.
What's interesting here is not his treatment (he complains about ridiculous things, but also about more serious stuff, that caused him to attempt suicide twice, and an extensive hunger strike).
What is truly amazing, pathetic and plain disgusting, is just how extraordinarly weak the case against him appears. Key witnesses took back their testimony claiming CIA pressure. The guy offers to take polygraphs. There appears pathetically little in the way of hard evidence.
I don't know one way or another about the guilt of this guy. I certainly find the entire phenomemon of Gitmo and the massive abuses combined with the pathetically weak cases - to be something of a low point for our nation. How can we ever hold the moral high ground with this disgrace dogging our every step all over the world?
"A suspected terrorist who once lived in Maryland told a military tribunal that he was "mentally tortured" at the U.S. detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and was driven to twice attempt suicide by chewing through his own arteries, according to a transcript of a hearing released yesterday by the Pentagon.
Majid Khan, 27, one of 14 "high-value" suspects held for years by the CIA at secret foreign prisons before their transfer to Guantanamo Bay, also said he lost 30 pounds in 27 days during a hunger strike, according to the transcript. In a statement redacted in places by government censors, he complained of mistreatment that ranged from having his beard forcibly shaved and spending weeks without sunlight to the poor quality of the camp's weekly newsletter, it says."
Here is another account from 2005.
Real Jack Bauer stuff there. Lol! Oh no! Not the sissy slap!
How dare you question the government! You must be for the terr'rists!
Not surprising you see the world through eyes of fiction.
Does anyone really like the idea of Gitmo and Abu Ghraib? You don't have a problem with innocent people being kidnapped, tortured, all in the name of freedom? Are you that desperate to defend the incompetence and corruption of the people you support by picking one kook as representative of the whole picture? Willing to ignore the overwhelming evidence that this is not the case for a majority of those who, even if guilty, are treated ways we decry our enemies for? That our system is set up to protect against because the FF realized such things could lead to abuse, especially against the innocent, to make us no better than those we fight against? Even the guilty get to have rights, because everyone has them or no one does. This is such a basic fundamental principle of our society, I'm continually amazed at those so ill informed as to not understand why such places hurt us all.
The real (warning, graphic) story (here, here, here, here here).
Absolutely! We need somewhere to hold foreign nationals.
Innocent? These must be some of those Baby Aspirin factory workers that found themselves holding AK-47s in the wrong place at the wrong time. I hate it when that happens.
Is this your considered opinion, or is it your attempt at humour? If it is your "considered" opinion, are you supporting the idea of holding people for four or five years without offering a shred of evidence against them? Is this the freedom and justice your heroes are fighting for? A serious answer, please.
Not without a shred of evidence. If you think these guys were all day care workers, then you'd be sadly mistaken. Do you think that they should be just released back into Afganistan and hope they apply for jobs at the Red Crescent?
Uh oh- skunk's gonna get you...
He work at Red Crescent?
oldcorpse was right about you: you need authority. i'll tell you that it's completely antithetical to the basis on which this country was founded to trust the gov't so much.
especially after this bunch in the WH has proven itself so untrustworthy. the trust you have is tragically misplaced.
You seem very sure. More sure, in fact, than some CIA operatives. Your sources must be very well-informed.
And another even more egregious example:
Do you have any sassy little riposte to this one? For someone to have the gall to call themselves a "libertarian" when they have such scant respect for protecting other people's personal liberty is a bit of a sick joke, don't you think?
If you want to believe that we're holding these guys and pumping them for years worth of cooking recipes and sheep herding techniques then go ahead. And no, I really am not concerned about the freedoms and rights of terrorists.
Perhaps you can write the State Department and get permission to house one of these misunderstood, sold out goat herders to stay at your home for a little cultural exchange.
just curious: if the CIA offered you $25k to say that i was a terrorist, would you do it?
Humans need authority. It's the downside to not completely depending on instinct like some species can.
Do you think that they would offer it unless I had some evidence to support it? If you think they are that guillable, why stop at you? I'd just turn in the entire audience of the next Superbowl and retire.
You do not deserve your freedom.
And apparently not with the rights and freedoms of the innocent either.
Hmm...but maybe we should have them stay with you instead. Maybe you could learn something.
You really don't get it, do you?
And you once again prove why no one has asked you to be put in charge of this place.