So Long Internet Explorer?

arn

macrumors god
Original poster
Staff member
Apr 9, 2001
14,500
1,784
Spymac claims that Apple may break free from Internet Explorer at MacWorld San Francisco.

Rumors over the past year have pointed to Apple attempting to gain some further independence of Microsoft... with Sun-Apple StarOffice rumors, updated AppleWorks rumors, iCal, and updated Mail clients.

Apple's browser support has remained with Internet Explorer since the agreement in 1997. This agreement ended this year, and Apple's hiring of David Hyatt (the creator of Chimera) has fueled speculation of an Apple branded browser... and at the very least a push towards a non-Microsoft browser.
 

strider42

macrumors 65816
Feb 1, 2002
1,460
6
I'm not sure I ever really understood why MS supports explorer on the mac. I mean, on the PC, their original worry was that a browser may become a computing platform over which they have no control. Now it acts as a way to help establish other tehcnologies from them. But on the mac, is this such a big concern for them? It never really added up for me.

So, I don't think it would be a bad idea for an apple browser to exist again. I guess we'll just have to see how this all pans out.
 

Foocha

macrumors 6502a
Jul 10, 2001
588
0
London
I used to think that it was a terrible idea for Apple to develop their own browser (and let's face it, Cyberdog was a terrible browser). Two things have happened lately to change my mind:

1. Microsoft has allowed development of IE for Mac to slip so far behind that it no longer has much in common with the PC version - so it's not a standard, and it is no longer cross-platform compatible.

2. Mozilla is now a credible alternative, and is almost identical on any platform. This presents Apple with the opportunity of making an excellent in investment in developing a Mozilla based Web browser with an Apple-quality Cocoa UI. Heck, I think Apple should even pitch in and assist the whole Mozilla innitiative with its marketing bucks and development resources.

The question is, will Apple be able to make this move without souring the relationship with Microsoft to such an extent that they cease development of Office for Mac. Since MS is being so sluggish with IE development on Mac, and they don't make any money from it, perhaps this will not be such a big issue.
 

reyesmac

macrumors 6502
Jul 17, 2002
373
53
Central Texas
Since MS is not going to make exlporer like the Windows version, I say Apple picking a new browser is a good thing. I would be much happier knowing that the browser that Apple makes will use every technology availabe to become the fastest browser available. I hope they integrate sherlock into it and have more services like that in the browser. I wish they would make something like the scrapbook that IE has though, that thing is great.

If it can go to any e-commerce & business-type site without problems it should be a winner.
 

arn

macrumors god
Original poster
Staff member
Apr 9, 2001
14,500
1,784
Originally posted by Foocha

The question is, will Apple be able to make this move without souring the relationship with Microsoft to such an extent that they cease development of Office for Mac. Since MS is being so sluggish with IE development on Mac, and they don't make any money from it, perhaps this will not be such a big issue.
I think the Apple-Microsoft relationship is already soured.

Jobs and Schiller have been taking shots at them all year... and the Mac business unit guy from Microsoft has even made threats about discontinuing Office if it doesn't sell. And Apple took a jab right back.

plus, with the Switch campaign, they've ben very agressive.

Apple may be trying to position themselves... hopefully they can back it up.

arn
 

iGav

macrumors G3
Mar 9, 2002
9,025
1
Personally I'd be surprised if MS did stop Mac IE development, either way you look at it, Apple still sell ALOT of Macs, and in this day and age, I believe MS needs all the good exposure it can get......

If Apple does decide to replace IE.... so what..... I'd love an Apple browser that truely supported W3C standards, and if MS does continue supporting the Mac, then those that use IE can always D/L it......

From my position Apple certainly seems to be positioning itself for a post MS world, and I personally think this is a good thing, as long as the Apple alternatives are compatible with PC file formats and that they is a viable alternative to MS Office then there shouldn't really be a problem.......

As funny as Jobs' digs are MS, they should be atleast a little careful, just incase it all goes pear shaped again..... Something tells me MS wouldn't be so willing to help next time......
 

Nipsy

macrumors 65816
Jan 19, 2002
1,009
0
I'm glad I've been writing good web code for years. It'll be fun to pick up everybody's contract repairs when all the IE centric sites break.
 

mac15

macrumors 68040
Dec 29, 2001
3,099
0
but won't this stuff the ties with M$ and the making of office X, I hope not cause thats vital to the mac
 

Choppaface

macrumors 65816
Jan 22, 2002
1,187
0
SFBA
yay! a web design nightmare! that's going to win them over big in that part of the design community... :rolleyes: .... he he :D :D

unless they can roll something out with a) everything that mozilla has and b) behavior that somewhat mimics mac IE now, web developers aren't going to get a good preview of what most of their audience will see. it might not be a huge deal as table-based layouts start to get phased out, and if apple can provide some sort of setting to emulate XP anti-aliasing (like what, a tenth of OSX?)......... but apple can't play "let's fundamentally change computing" in this arena as they did in the jump from OS9 to OSX. course as long as IE6+ does not start to behave a lot diffently than mac IE 5.2, and as long as IE5.2 will even run in X, it too might not be a big deal.

besides design issues, I really see this thing having some sort of special integration with .mac and all their other fluff. I really doubt apple could restrict themselves from producing an application as isolated from the operating system as IE is now. this would be annoying.
 

Pants

macrumors regular
Aug 21, 2001
194
3
Originally posted by Choppaface


besides design issues, I really see this thing having some sort of special integration with .mac and all their other fluff. I really doubt apple could restrict themselves from producing an application as isolated from the operating system as IE is now. this would be annoying.
yeah - agreed with teh standards thing, and doubly agreed with this last bit. seriously, wouldn't this approach (and I agree, i cannot see apple NOT tying it in with .mac) blur teh distinction between the way M$ operates and teh way Appl£ is starting to operate? In fact, i'd go as far to say that the mac platform is becoming MORE of a closed shop, monopolistic market than windows - we have always had limited hardwar choices, but now software too? Independant companies are getting trampled on (ahem - the new sherlock is, lets be frank, a rip off) - is this a GOOD thing?? yeah, exploder sucks plums, but there are other browsers around. Choice is never bad, but using a market position to leverage out competitors is not good. :/
 

Wry Cooter

macrumors 6502
Mar 10, 2002
418
0
Originally posted by reyesmac


If it can go to any e-commerce & business-type site without problems it should be a winner.
Of course if Microsoft were to use Explorer as a marketing wedge, this is exactly where it would be. I have already seen IE used as a front end for proprietary (as opposed to public) databases. Perhaps this is not a problem, but it could be made into one.
 

j763

macrumors 6502a
Nov 25, 2001
660
0
Champaign, IL, USA
Don't get too worried, apple's not just going to mess with the UI (can anyone say virex?), they've actually been working with the moz codebase and adding support for loads of technologies (even win2k-iis proxy authentication!!!). also, apple's been speaking *a lot* w/sun recently... hope to see something materialize sf03 -- mw's are just turning into sw shows... ...until ibm get their beasty ppc chip out the door.
 

G4scott

macrumors 68020
Jan 9, 2002
2,219
2
Austin, TX
boo-ya m$... take it!

I just hope that if they kill IE, they have something that works... Netscape is ok, but I prefer OmniWeb, but OmniWeb just doesn't do some things.
 

bretm

macrumors 68000
Apr 12, 2002
1,951
27
Originally posted by G4scott
boo-ya m$... take it!

I just hope that if they kill IE, they have something that works... Netscape is ok, but I prefer OmniWeb, but OmniWeb just doesn't do some things.
More precisely, OmniWeb doesn't do ANYTHING. It's the prettiest, most incompatible browser out there. Possibly sans chimera, but at least chimera seems to have full css support. Chimera's flash support however is complete junk. Other mozilla browsers like netscape and mozilla don't display tables correctly and some css styles correctly. Oh, but they have tabbed browsing which omniweb and ie doesn't. IE is probably the slowest of the bunch.

As much as ms sucks, it displays pages correctly, whereas the other 3 do not. I can live without tabbed browsing if the pages are correct.

Personally, I think the mac version of IE is much better than the windows version. I like the favorites/history slide out panel on the left better, I like autofill alot. I don't think the windows version has autofill. And as far as display characteristics go, I still find things more akin to Netscape 4 in IE on the PC, whereas the mac version will display a page closer to the way it was designed more of the time.
 

barkmonster

macrumors 68020
Dec 3, 2001
2,123
12
Lancashire
I hope apple do something about browsers on the mac.

I think mozilla is the closest to a completely working and W3C compliant browser.

If apple got hold of the source code, added Altivec enhancements to the javascript compiler while speeding it up for G3s at the same time, made the rendering engine Quartz based so it scrolls and renders pages lightning fast and got rid of the sluggishness when you open new browers windows or open links. Mozilla or an Apple browser based on it running on the mac would be the fastest, most stable, most standards compliant browser on any platform.

We need a better browser.

I was using IE 6 on a PC recently, it was an old PC, maybe a Pentium III or something and it was so fast compared to the mac version it makes M$'s efforts on the mac version seem wasted and half arsed.

Scrolling is so smooth it's frame accurate in someway, even scrolling a window on my mac isn't as smooth as IE 6 scrolls pages in IE 6.

If mozilla keeps progressing at the rate it is doing and all the bugs and speed issues are delt with, even if apple don't end up making their own version, I'll be getting rid of all the M$ bloatware and using a browser that just works.

Netscape isn't an option, I really don't like opera and I'm not running OS X so I can't comment on the other browsers.

iCab could turn out to be a great browser one day too, once it's 100% finished and there's no missing features.
 

Nonosse

macrumors newbie
Aug 7, 2002
21
0
The Hague, NL
Goodi ?

My position...

On my old dinosaurs (3400 & 4400), i still use Netscape 4.7, and i'm pretty glad about it.

Explorer, which starts on its own once in a while because my computers are not properly set, doesn't inspire me - the visible area is too small for me, i don't feel like switching.

Now, i've always been told that part of the reason why Internet is so fast on Winboxes is that IE is more or less included in the OS. Could we hope the same might happen with an Apple browser, slightly faster ? And browsers are not really individual softwares anymore - you use them so often they SHOULD BE part of the OS. How many of us DON'T start it and close it with the computer ?

Arnaud.
 

Mr. Anderson

Moderator emeritus
Nov 1, 2001
22,561
0
VA
wasn't there talk of giving sherlock html viewing capabilities a while back?

And with the new version, searching for files on your own computer isn't an option anymore.
 

jhalmos

macrumors newbie
Jul 16, 2002
1
0
Toronto
Oh boy.

This is a bad idea. Apple needs the direct competition as well as connection to M$ to be considered a serious contender. If Apple thinks that StarOffice, or, god forbid, AppleWorks can replace Office they are completely out to lunch. Office X was a miricle and a credibility move for Apple at the time and while there's the usual M$ bugs in it (PPT suffers considerably in Jag) the damn thing is an essential package for Apple. Especially after the Apple division of M$ made such grand and early efforts to get on board the OSX train. And Chimera, good lord, it's still a zygot. Jobs will lose serious points if he's got the idea that now that the deal is done that he can go kick sand in their faces. Perhaps M$ HAS to keep producing Office for another OS to keep out of jail, but Apple taking advantage of that will only hurt themselves. Apple/Jobs have often made these sorts of huge branding/strategy blunders. Let's hope they've predicted the future acurately, and that my worries are wrong wrong wrong.
 

Gaz

macrumors regular
Aug 15, 2002
138
0
London, UK
All the bitching that Apple Execs are doing to M$ is nothing short of stupid.

I think it would help to look at the arguement from a different perspective. Firstly M$ HAS made lots of bad products, there is no question of this fact. What most people fail to realise is that they are also making some really good steps forward and they are beginning to produce stuff that is really good. Try looking beyond the OS.

Office is a very good product and I personally haven't used a package that is more productive. If you lose this you lose a large amount of appeal to switch. Remember switch is mainly targetted at people who don't know much about computers. They want to see the name of an important peice of software they use. Do not underestimate the impact this has. Also even if you make a compatible suite it won't ever be 100% compatible and this is a big turn off for users.

You may not realise this but M$ has done some great things for web browsing. Much of the functionality that you have today is because M$ has pushed new ideas and that it has attempted to work with the W3C to get these ideas standard.

If M$ go as far to pull IExplorer and Office then you'll loose Messenger as well. Most people will not say screw M$ we'll use something else, they'll say well I can't use the stuff I need so I'll stick with the platform where I know I can do these tasks. Also beyond this M$ could pull support for their hardware and say bye bye to your optical mouse.

In true Apple needs M$ more the M$ needs Apple. Yes Apple should release their own browser, competition can be good as long as it is not done in a monoplist (sorry not sure if that is the right word) way.

The way to truely give people a choice is to provide the different browsers with the OS X install and then let them choose the one they want to use. I would guess the majority (remember the switcher here) would use IE by default. If Apple supplies it's own version and forces users to have to download other browsers you can hardly say this is fair.

Anyway my long drawn out point is that don't let M$ past sway you in to thinking all things by them are bad. They've done a lot more for computering than you'd ever realise (and that's good things). The best solution would be to encourage everyone to make better products and let the consumer decide.

Gaz.

p.s. The media only lay in to M$ because it's the current cool thing to do. Yes there are some big issues with their products but OS X requires plenty of sercurity updates. Also when a product is so popular and widespread it becomes a bigger target for hackers. If OS X or 9 was anywhere near as big then i'm certain main of the vunerabilities would be explioted and you would see OS X in the press far more.
 

lelereb

macrumors member
Jul 16, 2001
54
0
There is no need to removes IE from the applications boundle, Apple can simply "add" Mozilla (or any other browser) and set it as the default browser.
 

chmorley

macrumors 6502a
Jan 2, 2002
602
2
Denver, CO
One problem

Anyone ever play Interactive TV with Monday Night Football?

I did it throughout last year, using NS 4 in classic, as no X-native browser would run it (not sure why that would be, but it was). I tried the same thing last Monday night, and it told me that only MSIE would work. It didn't, in 9 or X.

ESPN has become part of MSN.

They seem to have struck a deal with M$ to make IE the only acceptable browser. If this trend continues with other "special features" of specific sites, I'll be really pissed. I don't want to have to run VPC to play.

That being said, I think an Apple-branded browser would be great. I don't care if they do it as long as we eventually have a browser so complete we only need one.

Those bashing Chimera should check out 0.5.

I loved Cyberdog. It was fast, stable, and fantastically configurable.

Chris
 

vixapphire

macrumors 6502
Jul 22, 2002
382
0
Los Angeles
Well, I haven't seen or run IE 6 yet (we're still on 5.5 at work) and I've got 5.x running on my G3 at home with a 56k dialup (no jokes, please)... I don't really see where as a mac user I am supposedly suffering through the use of IE. Netscape has always looked to me like 1996; it's as if they stopped developing/upgrading because they had a lot of legal bills to pay or something :)

I remember Apple's "eworld" and other such forays into the browser jungle some years ago. Let's hope they "don't even go there" again...

Perhaps a smarter move than pulling a MS-move and shipping its computers with only the proprietary browser installed (and thus forcing users to ferret out and download alternatives from the web) might be to arrange to license the IE 6 or whatever current/future MS browser code from MS and have their own (Apple's) engineers port it/incorporate it into the Mac OS. After all, if MS and other 3d party developers are able to view in advance the Mac OS before it's commercially available in order to develop their products for the platform (i.e. Office.x), why wouldn't the reverse be possible, especially on a cost-center (free) product like IE? An optimized browser that MS has done most of the legwork on already, and that carries the big brand identity, sounds like a win-win to me.

As someone who is a lone mac guy in a field of Wintel people, my observation is that most folks considering a "switch" are paying more attention to software titles than anything else. It's sort of like buying a car: why buy a Yugo when you can buy a Chevy Cavalier? Hell, the Yugo might've even been a better car, but it ain't got the familiar brand name. (o.k., that was a horrible example, but you get my drift...)

Besides, I would think that most average home computer consumers, if they buy off the shelf systems (ie. from Dell or Gateway or whatever) are getting a plug and play system with OS and browser (and sometimes Office, etc.) preinstalled. Thus, the "trouble-free computing" issues a lot of Apple power-users and heavy-duty system whores trumpet about may not have any resonance with these people, making the issue of cross-platform software title availability even more important.
 

nuckinfutz

macrumors 603
Jul 3, 2002
5,504
314
Middle Earth
Barkmonster,
You will not see a browser faster than IE in Windows ever because IE is basically embedded into the OS. This gives it better access to the internals and the speed advantage is very noticeable. However, crash IE and your system can easily become unstable. I did it last night.


If M$ go as far to pull IExplorer and Office then you'll loose Messenger as well. Most people will not say screw M$ we'll use something else, they'll say well I can't use the stuff I need so I'll stick with the platform where I know I can do these tasks. Also beyond this M$ could pull support for their hardware and say bye bye to your optical mouse.
AIM is the #1 Instant Messenger. Despite MS attempts to cram MSN Messenger down users throats. iChat support is Apple going with the leader. MS isn't pulling Office because that's like pulling money out your pocket and burning it. Who cares about an Optical Mouse. I've got PLENTY of options. Mac users need MS generally for Office. That's about it. Competing Browsers are getting to the point where IE is not even needed in many cases.

The way to truely give people a choice is to provide the different browsers with the OS X install and then let them choose the one they want to use. I would guess the majority (remember the switcher here) would use IE by default. If Apple supplies it's own version and forces users to have to download other browsers you can hardly say this is fair.
You do have the choice on both platforms. My PC has Netscape also. No one is forcing you to standardize on one browser but that doesn't mean they're going to provide multiple browsers. They'll ship with a default and if you want to change that...change it. No harm no foul.



Anyway my long drawn out point is that don't let M$ past sway you in to thinking all things by them are bad. They've done a lot more for computering than you'd ever realise (and that's good things). The best solution would be to encourage everyone to make better products and let the consumer decide.

You're preaching in front of the wrong choir here. I won't dispute the advancements that Microsoft has made but once again they've dominated a market and then that market's innovation has stagnated. I'm excited about the prospects of Apple adding it's flair to a Browser. With Apples focus on Integration and Digital Lifestyle they could really tie their own tech to a browser making it the "experience" that many of us expected. How long will Mac users stand to be treated like second class citizens? Not long I suppose.