Some Success in Iraq

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by halfprep455, Nov 18, 2007.

  1. halfprep455 macrumors regular

    halfprep455

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    #1
  2. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    I expect the insurgency is in its last throes.
     
  3. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    With both Sunnis and Shiites finally deciding that they don't like being IEDed by Al Qaida types, the snitching out to our troops and to Iraqi police and military is increasing. As that happens, the villages get back toward a more stable life, with business picking up.

    They'll be happy to see us go, but they've got it figured out that we don't do IEDs by schools or hospitals. They've figured out that it's us who do all this rebuilding, as well. And if the oil pipelines don't get blown up, there's more money inside Iraq that's available for investment. These folks aren't stupid.

    A fairly recent news article stated the Saudi belief that as many as 5,000 Saudi Al Qaida types have died in Iraq, which happifies the Saudi government. If their problem children export themselves to Iraq and we kill them, life is more stable inside Saudi Arabia.

    The newsies always make a big deal of our losses, but they don't say much about how many insurgents get clobbered. Emails from our guys regularly include gripes about this. No way of knowing for sure, sitting here in the U.S., but it's apparently 10 to 20 Bad Guys for every one of our Good Guys.

    It's all well and good to talk about "suicide bombers", but it seems to take a lot of care and nurturing to keep these clods focussed on 72 virgins. At some point, demand exceeds supply. Seems like we're getting toward that point.

    Still, there's a helluva lot left to do.

    'Rat
     
  4. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

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    Well, first of all foreign fighters in Iraq make up a single digit percentage. And we've been hearing things are getting better for how long now, so forgive me if I'm suspicious. Also, I guess it's easier to say there are fewer casualties when you change the way you count victims. Not to mention the fact that the political changes that are needed are just not happening.

    But hey, if things are going so well, great, let's start planning a gradual withdrawal.
     
  5. Thomas Veil macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

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    I think Desertrat paints a rosy picture, but I'll wait to hear more like this before I believe it's really getting better.

    And if it is getting better, then we should plan getting out of there, right?
     
  6. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

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    Mission isn't accomplished until we find the WMDs.
     
  7. halfprep455 thread starter macrumors regular

    halfprep455

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    I hope it does get better so that way there is absolutely no excuse to keep our troops there. I think the time is coming for both sides to agree to begi to withdraw personnel from Iraq.
     
  8. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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  9. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    Let's hope it is getting better. I'll believe it as well when we start withdrawing. Hmm...wouldn't it be truly beautiful if the withdrawal started with a Democrat as President?
     
  10. saltyzoo macrumors 65816

    saltyzoo

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    #10
    Absolutely. Because political advantage is always what matters most in situations regarding war.
     
  11. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    True enough. And maybe it would teach certain dimwits not to start wars when there's no justification for them. Bush deserves a lot worse than just how history will view him.
     
  12. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    Ran across a story the other day claiming that now that British troops have left Basra, violence has declined by 90%.

    Seems like if we want the situation in Iraq to improve, there's the solution. To paraphrase Ron Paul, the people who tell us there will be a bloodbath if we leave are the same ones who said it will be a cakewalk going in, and that oil revenues would pay for it all. Why should we believe them?
     
  13. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

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    Because they told us to?
     
  14. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    I'm reading that three of the eighteen provinces are still having serious problems, which means that fifteen are reasonably well calmed down. Seems like improvement to me.

    And why would anybody object to improvements of any sort?

    As far as the improvement in Basra after the Brits left, it could be that they left because they were no longer needed...

    'Rat
     
  15. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

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    Well we've lowered the bar so much, I'd believe that with our new litmus tests that may be the case. Some links would be nice though. Plus, again, doesn't change the lack of political progress.

    I would like to point out though that one of those areas (in the Northern region, forget the name, Kurdish area) actually got better when we weren't there.

    *Sigh* :rolleyes: We don't. We just don't believe the rosy picture being portrayed. But it would be great if things did suddenly turn all wonderful and the political leaders stepped up, as did local security, because then we could be preparing a gradual pullout. That's not happening, and we can't sustain current forces. Not to mention things like the massive amounts of people and areas still without basic utilities (I've read as high as almost 70%) and still crumbling infrastructure.

    Really? Ok. Great. Let's leave then. They don't want us there, we don't want us there. Things are getting better. We need to start (finally) planning an exit strategy.
     
  16. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

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    I've heard that crime in Montana and North Dakota is lower than in New York City.
     
  17. saltyzoo macrumors 65816

    saltyzoo

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    I've heard that crime in Montana and North Dakota was always lower than New York City.
     
  18. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

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    I think you missed his point.
     
  19. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    Completely and grossly missed the point.
     
  20. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    Lord knows I don't see anything rosy about the situation in Iraq. All I'm saying is that I agree with those who say there are improvements at the local level in many areas, and that there is less shooting and less "IEDing".

    A lot of the reason for my not using links is because I tend to read a bunch of articles from various sources over a fairly lengthy period and generally look for consistency. For instance, does a story in Newsweek jibe with a later or an earlier story in Soldier of Fortune? And, do they jibe with some emails from friends of mine who have friends or relatives in Iraq? If so, then I figure there is some validity to conclusions. So a link to one source is an indicator, but there may well be more to the story.

    In that other thread, I posted part of an email from a colonel who's in Iraq on a re-up tour. He commented therein about working with local-level leadership, sorta severing the up-the-chain/down-the-chain linkage to the central government in Baghdad. This seems to be a Petraeus policy. The result is a better life for everyone in the villages, towns and smaller cities. the hearts-and-minds thing has got to work from the bottom up, not from the top down. When our guys treat Iraqi guys as equals, the whole deal improves--and, as near as I can tell, that's what's beginning to happen.

    Beginning.

    'Rat
     
  21. carbonmotion macrumors 6502a

    carbonmotion

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    I certainly hope its getting better, but I remember reading in history books about how Americans thought we were winning Vietnam until Tet. So, I'm going to learn from history and reserve my judgement until something more concrete is at hand.
     
  22. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

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    I am a master at stating the obvious.

    Had you put it that way, I might have agreed. Just don't think it's good enough, and don't think we're getting the whole picture. Plus the whole, fool me once thing. The credibility of those talking about how great things are are overstating, as usual, diminishing what little good there may be, even if their credibility wasn't gone. Plus, I still see a lack of political progress, which is actually kinda upsetting because I really would like us to leave something positive before we get the hell out.
     
  23. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

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    Here's an article from a former commander in Iraq who can better explain what I meant about the lack of political progress:

    http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gOShdEIUILz345nMuxV2zAfYWDhgD8T2B6U00

     
  24. killerrobot macrumors 68020

    killerrobot

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    Not too sure about that - I mean it'd be nice, but I'm more pessimistic about it I guess. It seems that with less violence, security has been loosening up, and bans have been revoked allowing opportunities for new violence and bombings as this one in a pet market.

     
  25. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #25
    Your Irony meter needs new batteries. I was quoting the meaninglessly reiterated mantra of Dickhead Cheney.
     

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