Something better happen soon, or we are in trouble

MacManiac1224

macrumors regular
Original poster
Oct 21, 2001
227
0
NY
I am a loyal Mac fan, but also a Stock market specialist. I have recently been reading about Intel and AMD, and the new chips that are coming out. I think there may ba a problem for Apple. I am hearing reports from various soruces throughout the net saying Apple is not going to release the G5 in MWNY, well, they better do something, becasue AMD is going to release thier Hammer Chip in the Summer, and Intel is going to release thier new McKinley chip this summer also. I only say that if Apple wants to get into the server market, they better have something bigger and better then Intel and AMD to compete. Also in the Pro market: I highly doubt the G4 will be able to take on the Hammer and the McKinley, even in Graphics, So Apple better do something.

What do you guys think?
 

Taft

macrumors 65816
Jan 31, 2002
1,319
0
Chicago
I agree completely.

Motorola is really just keeping up at this point. They need to get the G5 out the door and make it good enough to best the Intel chips out there.

They really need a new chip. A fast chip.

Matthew
 

DNA

macrumors newbie
Jan 22, 2002
19
0
I really hope...

...that Apple isn't focusing more on the consumer market just because they, due to the lack of a new chip, consider the battle lost in the high-end area of the market. But it could be that way, I guess.
 

theranch

macrumors 6502
Jan 3, 2002
300
0
Atlantic City area
I agree

They better get something "earth shattering" out the door soon....these dual processor machines are nothing but a patch job to their line. Don't get me wrong, they are fast machines...if you have the software that utilizes them properly. It seems like Apple is saying...oh yeah AMD and Pentium well...we have-a-fast-machine too... The new 2x 1ghz G4 was only released after everyone saw the new iMac and the Apple desktop line up didn't look so fast anymore. Apple in my opinion is behind in the game right now and they seriously need to gain my confidence with a G5 crazy a** machine.
Whew...got that off my chest.
 

agreenster

macrumors 68000
Dec 6, 2001
1,892
2
Walt Disney Animation Studios
Apple seems like they are always behind the PC world. I dont know why that is. Sure, we had firewire first, and some other minor things, but it always seems like when the PC has some new and faster hardware, apple drags its feet and releases a similar, or maybe slightly better thing later. (Im talking hardware here, not OS, which is quite the opposite)

Take DDR ram for example. How long has THAT been out, and Apple still hasnt released a system that uses this. And they certainly arent as quick to develop processors.
Yeah, they are innovative, and make fast, cool-looking products, but they just dont bring them around as fast as the PC market does. maybe its an economic thing.
 
The Future

Apple HAS to got with G5's soon, or they are totally screwed! They need something with alot of press and MWNY is the plave to do it. I think it will be a G5 at macworld at 1.6ghz dual with DDR ram, FireWire2(Or whatever name it is), and some really cool design to put it in. Apple should bust a move before the Wintel world does. We need to be, "The first with 5." Bad joke;) but hey we can hope(Prayin now)
 

jvaska

macrumors 6502
Feb 18, 2002
432
18
Haiti/NYC
I am a loyal Mac fan, but also a Stock market specialist.
i disagree completely...

apple makes better machines...better OS'...being behind AMD and Intel...who cares...and the idea that it will be faster for graphics...uh, yeah...like that will sway any of my designer friends to switch...

investers...stock marketers...you guys really need to stop trying to tell people where it's at...or maybe you shouild pay back the trillions that you sucked out of regular people's bank accounts by saying "buy...buy" when it was clearly a bad idea...watering down the watering hole...

don't believe the hype!!

you can get into all the semantics about market forces and such you want...apple has been here for years...has weathered much worse times...and they still are without a doubt a high quality company...

so much of dot.communism was about hype...meaningless...

i can wait for a g5...my g4 is a great machine...it will happen someday soon...and i will likely buy one...jv
 

unclepain

macrumors member
Jan 23, 2002
67
0
Va Beach VA
always behind the curve...

Apple has always played catch up in terms of hardware, but that's not what Apple is known for. They are know for their superior design, and awesome software and user interface. No one has ever said, "OH MY GOD, That Apple Motherboard ROCKS!" They have had to follow the lead of the Wintel world for many things hardware wise to ensure compatibility. IDE drives, USB, Ethernet, SDRAM, AGP etc. The only things they were first to market on were firewire and ADC. Those technologies haven't exactly set the PC world on fire... no pun intended. Apple has to be behind the curve as far as the internal components go to maintain compatibility and to keep prices down. As far as the processor goes, I don't think we can fault Apple for this totally. I'm sure they would love to put a 3 GHZ G5 chip in their machines today if they could, but the reality of it is that Moto is really holding the reigns here. TO be honest with you, I personally think Moto has too many irons in the fire to maintain a lead in the Desktop Processor race. When you think of Intel, what do you think of? Desktop CPUS. When you think of Moto, what do you think of. Walkie Talkies. Maybe cell phones. Who else besides Mac geeks think of Moto as a desktop CPU manufacturer? Not many, and it's because that's not what Moto's primary function is. I won't claim to know what the answer is, cause I don't. If I did, I would be working here. But just remember what Apple really is good at. UI, easy to use Apps, wonderful hardware designs. They have to follow the hardware standards just like every other PC maker out there.
 

OSeXy!

macrumors regular
Jan 17, 2002
239
0
London (or virtually here)
Re: always behind the curve...

Originally posted by unclepain
...No one has ever said, "OH MY GOD, That Apple Motherboard ROCKS"!
Probably true. But why is that? I think Moto HAS been slow (compared to AMD) to update the G4's specs. But it looks like the real drag in the system is now down to the motherboard. Who is in charge of that? Who is leading who on this?

I was excited when the Apollos came out, and then depressed when I read that they still only had that same old 133MHz bus! Maybe Apple has a fab mobo in the wings and are waiting for the chips to fit it -- or, as MOSR seems to think -- it's the other way around... I'm not necessarily looking to say "that Apple Motherboard ROCKS!", I just don't want to say "that Apple Motherboard SUCKS ROCKS". Why can't they get their act together on this?
 

Jookbox

macrumors 6502
Jan 19, 2002
395
0
major upgrades of athlons and pentiums will kill apple in performance, but not necessairly business. too bad apple has no competition, they can take as long as they want, but still maintain that single digit market share, because it's too strong a proposition for some mac fiends to switch over.
 

Taft

macrumors 65816
Jan 31, 2002
1,319
0
Chicago
Re: always behind the curve...

Originally posted by unclepain
IDE drives, USB, Ethernet, SDRAM, AGP etc. The only things they were first to market on were firewire and ADC. Those technologies haven't exactly set the PC world on fire... no pun intended.
I think firewire is doing very well. It is very superior to USB and Firewire 2 will be superior to USB 2. I think Firewire will live (you've got a lot of video cameras, hard disks, and cd players/burners out there). ADB was too closed to take off, and it wasn't anything more than a specialized serial port.

And as for Apple leading the way...They've been credited with popularizing USB, Airport (801.11 I think...), and Firewire. I think thats a pretty good track record. I think first to market, and wide spread acceptance are two very different things.

Matthew
 

Taft

macrumors 65816
Jan 31, 2002
1,319
0
Chicago
Originally posted by jvaska


i disagree completely...

apple makes better machines...better OS'...being behind AMD and Intel...who cares...and the idea that it will be faster for graphics...uh, yeah...like that will sway any of my designer friends to switch...
You are right, people don't buy Macs because they are the absolute fastest. But Apple needs to stop just keeping up with Intel; they need to break away or lead. The perception that Apple doesn't make comparable machines to a dual 2G Intel machine DOES hurt them.

Graphics professionals don't care if their machine is the fastest out there, but other types of consumers do. Apple needs to offer solutions for everyone. And if enough people start saying that Macs have an inferior processor, people may even begin to abandon ship...even graphics pros.

In short, Apple can only gain by trying to get ahead of Intel. And they can only lose by continuing to slightly lag behind Intel. Not that they will definitely lose, but it certainly won't help them win.

Cold hard truth. And you all know it deep down inside your Mac-loving brains. All of us Mac-heads need a dose of that reality sometimes.

Matthew
 

dualburn001

macrumors regular
Feb 21, 2002
227
0
i think we'll see them in New York. Their will be to much hype going in to New York for Apple to turn people down. They'll treat us right and give us a G5, and hopefully bump up thier motherboard lines by alot.


Dualburn001
 

dualburn001

macrumors regular
Feb 21, 2002
227
0
Re: DDR not possible with the current G4 chips, it's not apple's fault

Originally posted by barkmonster
If you read the specs on the motorola site you'll see that the G4, even the new Apollo 7455 chip only has a 133Mhz FSB (front side bus), the fsb determines the type of RAM the CPU can use, DDR is 266Mhz so it won't work (please someone who understands this better, correct me if I'm wrong).

now when you concider that the largest cache on the G4 chips hasn't gone any higher than 250Mhz ever (the 533Mhz G4 is an exception but lets ignore that, it was mid range not high end). DDR ram could be used instead of the optional L3 cache, it'd save apple production costs for not having to add the extra cost of the cache and we'd all be happy.

look at the largest cache on the high end G4s since the G4's introduction:

500Mhz G4, 1Mb Cache at 250Mhz (2:1 ratio)
733Mhz G4, 1Mb Cache at 244Mhz (3:1 ratio)
1Ghz G4, 2Mb Cache at 250Mhz (4:1 ratio)

If apple get rid of the Level 3 cache and motorola increase the Level 2 cache to 512K and add 266Mhz DDR ram support, the G4s will scream even if the clock speeds only increase to a maximum of 1.2Ghz on the high end and 1Ghz on the entry level by summer.

Just look how lame a G4 without the 2Mb cache compares to one with the cache and you'll see how the larger cache is just as much of a bottleneck as the slow memory. I use my mac for audio and unless I can get a good deal on the mid range mac near the end of the year, I'm gonna have to look at what End Of Life deals are around at the time and try and get the current 933Mhz model just so I know it performs well enough for my needs while remaining cheap enough for me to afford one.
someone has been doing thier research!


Dualburn001
 

mischief

macrumors 68030
Aug 1, 2001
2,920
0
Santa Cruz Ca
Wrong Forum.

Originally posted by ivtrk
A fast processor won't do you any good if your OS sucks *ss.
Perhaps you were looking for an M$ usergroup?

No, wait you actually registered......so I can only assume you want to get Flamed.I think Arn's working on a "flame my stupid ignorant ass" Forum you may do better in. I figure you, redeye, Xg5, and Timothy ought to love it.

Learn to keep yer mouth shut.:p :rolleyes:

Okay, I jumped the gun. Sorry guys. Too high an Idiot count recently. I got a bit paranoid.
 

AmbitiousLemon

Moderator emeritus
Nov 28, 2001
3,338
0
down in Fraggle Rock
Mischief: i was assuming he meant that the wintel machines are no good because of their crappy os.

i completely agree with most of you guys abou the whole apple better get their act together. and dont say its moto's fault not apple. Apple should drop moto. and the fact that they havent is a joke. this is why im pissed at apple. drop moto let ibm take over and then go shopping for a new third wheel. moto is in such dire straits that im sure ibm and apple could purchase whatever pertanent patents they need to continue with the ppc line and get the G5 out the door.

the big reason we need a faster processor isnt because amd and intel are ahead (although that does matter) but because apple's software division is clearly way ahead of its hardware division. osx feels a bit like apple is putting the cart before the horse. sure we have the best OS available for desktop computing but who cares if even your highest end machine cant run it well. the hardware should be in such a place that even apple's lowest rung can run osx well. yes the hew dual g4s are fast, but just the fast that anyone is talking about window resizing and window load times is ridiculous. these should be such low level system tasks that the difference at this level should be inperceptable between the different hardware lines. steve has been running around like a mad man talking about the operating system of the future but ntice no mention of the hardware of the future to run it.

apple has not always been behind. in fact apple is almost always ahead of the curve. its only a very recent phenomena that apple's processors have been slower than the intel world. dont you people remember the snail with the p3 on its back, that was just 3 years ago people. the last two years have been bad, very bad for apple processors. and i blame it all on moto and apple's idiotic loyalty to moto.

if you look at any other part of the machine apple is ahead of peecee's but since moto took over the processor has lagged big time. and now they are slapping abunch of g5ish features on the g4 to extend the chips life. the new machines feel like they are on life support its a joke. the g4 was originally mapped out to 1ghz. we are there lets move on, dont worry the g4 has a nice place in a beautiful new imac. the g5 was originally mapped out to be released march of 2000. march of 2002 is just around the corner and all indications say not this year. whats the hold up? more than 2 years behind schedule and apple is allowing moto to stay in charge? has steve lost his mind? does apple even care?

osx is clearly design with a number of goals in mind but one very clear one is to attract wintel/linux users. and its doing this. but dont expect the same loyalty out of these guys. they will move on when the watering hole runs dry.

apple needs to air those pentium snail commercials again. i doubt it will win many over, but its an arms race, its a about bragging rights. apple's got to whip theirs out and show everyone they too are well hung. otherwise apple will be relegated to the joke category again. if apple wants to maintain the good press and be considered a serious computer they need to step up and measure themselves against the rest of the big boys.

i thought for sure apple would be the first to 64 bits. i was certain of it. looks like im gonna get proved wrong, such a shame since osx is seriously under powered right now.
 

mymemory

macrumors 68020
May 9, 2001
2,495
0
Miami
Well, I do not have money now and looks like I won't have enoght even after MWNY, so Apple can take its time developing what ever they need, I'm stuck with my G4 400..:(
 

krossfyter

macrumors 601
Jan 13, 2002
4,297
0
secret city
apple is got a different plan once again. they dont care what amd or intel are up to. apple knows they have better products and are on a different level. amd and intel are playing a stupid old game.
 

mywar2000

macrumors member
Jan 24, 2002
58
0
central Cali.
Ouch!

Mischief! Chill...

Given the context of this thread, I was under the impression that ivtrk was talking about wintel boxes having a sh|ty OS...and fast processors. Oh well, I might be wrong too?!
 

rekras

macrumors regular
Sep 3, 2001
172
0
NJ
stop moaning...

Dont get me wrong I'd like to see the g5 out as much as the next guy, but i cant help but kinda feel bad for apple. sure amd and intel can get fast chips out there all the time, because that's what they do. that is what they're company is entirely based on, chips. apple on the other hand has to deal with consumer desktops, laptops, pro desktops and laptops, iprograms, digital devices, wireless technology and devices, prosoftware, operating systems, and last but not least chips (i know motorolla makes the chips, but it still has a ton to do with apple). that is a sh*tload of things to deal with, and im sure i forgot some. and will all those things, all of u b*tch that u need faster mhz. i cant wait until the day when chips are so ridiculusly fast that it wont matter anymore what mhz they are. then u will all see what apple has done for us with they're innovation and hard work.

BTW- the guys who use g4s in kernels do not choose macs for the mhz, they use them for the velocity engine, energy efficiency, and stable operating system.