Something From Nothing: God vs the Universe

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Mac'nCheese, May 27, 2018.

  1. Mac'nCheese macrumors 68040

    Mac'nCheese

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2010
    #1
    So this thread will probably go south faster than a chubby intern on Bill Clinton (that's for you, Trump supporters) but I'm going to give it a shot. In another thread, we got off topic and started talking about why their has to be a deity. Could the Universe just come into being (or was always here) and, more importantly, could INTELLIGENT life develop "on its own" OR does there have to be a guiding hand. The old if there is a creator who created the creator point came up....
    Anyway, thoughts?
     
  2. Apple OC macrumors 68040

    Apple OC

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2010
    Location:
    Hogtown
    #2
    if there is infinity or forever... it is the universe.

    no beginning and no end.
     
  3. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2002
    Location:
    Republic of Ukistan
  4. juanm macrumors 65816

    juanm

    Joined:
    May 1, 2006
    Location:
    Fury 161
    #4
    Billions of years and iterations help, though.
     
  5. AlliFlowers Contributor

    AlliFlowers

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2011
    Location:
    L.A. (Lower Alabama)
    #5
    Sometimes you don't have to create something, just be creative.
     
  6. BeeGood macrumors 68000

    BeeGood

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2013
    Location:
    Lot 23E. Somewhere in Georgia.
    #6
    Personally, I believe there’s way too much order and predictability in the observable universe to conclude that it all “just happened”, but that’s just my opinion.
     
  7. Bug-Creator macrumors 6502

    Bug-Creator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2011
    Location:
    Germany
    #7
    While one can't rule out some kind of "god", one can rule out by basic logic thinking a specific god based on any "holy scripture".

    The fact that such nonsense as "religion" exist and isn't been corrected by a divine being can be used as a strong argument that such a divine being either doesn't exist or just doesn't give a ####.
     
  8. Fugabutacus macrumors regular

    Joined:
    May 10, 2010
    #8
    Why, though? All it takes is enough energy and time for things to become organised.

    What we're pretty certain of, though, is that it can't stay organised. Entropy is inevitable. So, if there is a creator, why would he build his amazing creation just to program it all to die?

    If the existence of organisation proves a god, surely the inevitability of entropy just as strongly disproves it?
     
  9. Lioness~, May 27, 2018
    Last edited: May 27, 2018

    Lioness~ macrumors 65816

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2017
    #9
    Einstein's quote: "God does not play dice with the universe." is a good one.
    Then consider he wasn't a bit religious. But certainly a man who's intelligence most definitely was trancendent to normal human intelligence.

    I'm certain that there is a higher spiritual intelligence and creative force that have an oversight, so to speak.
    I think God and the Universe are two sides of the same 'coin'.
    But that doesn't have anything to do with how religion and their view of what 'God' is from my opinion.

    But they are absolutely in their right , as everybody else, to explore their own consciousness to reach further into the higher spiritual intelligence, and explore what God is.
     
  10. TiggrToo macrumors demi-goddess

    TiggrToo

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2017
    Location:
    Out there...way out there
    #10
    I refuse to accept that the Great Flying Spaghetti Monster (May he bless us with his noodley appendages) is fake.

    Joking aside, the trouble with all religions is that they were created when man's view of the universe was based upon what he could see up in the sky - so it made sense for him to equate heaven to being above and hell below - after all, that was his perspective.

    Now we know that planet Earth is in reality nothing more than less than a microscopic insignificant speck of almost nothing when it comes to the size of the Universe (universes anyone?) one has to ask, "what gives?" Given just how totally and utterly insignificant we are to the whole of creation, what gives us creatures the right to define a 'god' in our vision?

    Already we have a marked difference of opinion between ourselves here on Earth as a single species, as to what form this deity we've created is - is it God, Muhammad, Yahweh or any other name and image? And that's just us. Has anyone bothered to ask the Dolphin's what they feel? All joking aside we know know just how intelligent Dolphin's are. OK, they haven't created the wheel, the nuclear bomb of Facebook but - hmmm - perhaps they are more intelligent than us :cool:. After all, Dolphins have managed to adapt to their environment and not forcing the environment to adapt to it...

    And that's just here on Earth. Given the simply mind boggingly huge number of stars out there the idea that life only evolved here just doesn't make any sense. Life here on Earth is amazingly varied and, right now, us two-legged carbon based lifeforms have staked a claim as the main force of change on our planet - who's to say that noodly creatures haven't established the same on another planet - perhaps the idea of a version the Great Flying Spaghetti Monster isn't so far fetched on a planet thousands of light years away.

    For all we know this may have well already happened and that life form is now extinct.

    To quote Douglas Adams:
     
  11. BeeGood, May 27, 2018
    Last edited: May 27, 2018

    BeeGood macrumors 68000

    BeeGood

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2013
    Location:
    Lot 23E. Somewhere in Georgia.
    #11
    What I’m saying is that we have a framework around all the stuff you see in the universe, and it’s pretty hard to believe that this frame work came out of nothing. Gravity, orbital mechanics, the speed of particles through different media, all of these things are constant throughout the universe.

    I can believe that a cloud of dust can spontaneously collapse into a star system, but I find it incredibly hard to believe that all of the rules around how that happens just came from nothing.

    I don’t know. But I think the question itself is problematic because it presumes that someone/something advanced enough to create the universe would necessarily think and reason like we do.

    Imagine what a monkey thinks when it watches a human do something like get into a car and drive away. I doubt it understands precisely what’s going on there, and we have something like 90% of our DNA in common. I can’t even begin to guess what I would be thinking while observing someone/something powerful enough to create an entire universe, but I don’t think I would assume I could discern and evaluate every action that entity would be making.

    Not necessarily. I just think it means that we don’t know everything that God knows.

    Again, these are my opinions.
     
  12. Falhófnir macrumors 68030

    Falhófnir

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2017
    #12
    We don’t even know the true nature of reality, we perceive a 3 dimensional (plus time) universe where you can go forward/ back, side to side or up and down, but who knows what the true structure of existence is - we certainly have a long way to go to even scratch the surface...
     
  13. GermanSuplex macrumors 6502a

    GermanSuplex

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2009
    #13
    Order and predictability are just made-up concepts. There’s nothing more significant about a piece of junk on the side of the street than there is planets revolving around the sun.
     
  14. BeeGood macrumors 68000

    BeeGood

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2013
    Location:
    Lot 23E. Somewhere in Georgia.
    #14
    Something being predictable doesn’t imply significance. I’m not sure what you’re saying here.

    If I drop a basketball to the ground from waiste level, it will bounce back up to my hand. Insignificant, but certainly predictable.

    The fact that we can put things in space and predict where planets will be so that those things can intercept them isn’t made up.
     
  15. Septembersrain macrumors 68040

    Septembersrain

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2013
    Location:
    Texas
    #15
    I'm agnostic. There could be an entity, multiple entities, the universe itself could just be a glass jar on an aliens desk as a C- science project.

    When I die, I have no idea what will happen. Is it scary? Yeah. However, there is so much we don't know.

    Going by that logic it's scary to just live. Anything can happen there too. I'm keeping an open mind.
     
  16. Apple OC macrumors 68040

    Apple OC

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2010
    Location:
    Hogtown
    #16
    When man-made vitamins replace the earth’s natural food sources... and humans start living much longer because of it... we’ll know about Aliens.
     
  17. statik13 macrumors regular

    statik13

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2008
    #17
    Religion is just science that hasn't been discovered yet.
     
  18. Fugabutacus macrumors regular

    Joined:
    May 10, 2010
    #18
    Care to share on how this affects your life?

    I very much believe that we're nothing more than electrical processes in the brain and it's a weird situation... On the one hand, I occasionally peer over the edge into existential crisis, but on the other hand, it's a really uplifting thought that there's no strings attached to any of this, we're just here, we're here once, and every single minute we have is important because of that.
     
  19. Septembersrain macrumors 68040

    Septembersrain

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2013
    Location:
    Texas
    #19
    I think it's more the fear of the unlnown. That's the same fear I feel when I go to a new place or try something scary. I think it's only natural to feel that way.

    Change is constant, it's how it'll affect you that makes it scary.

    This could just be me?
     
  20. GermanSuplex, May 27, 2018
    Last edited: May 27, 2018

    GermanSuplex macrumors 6502a

    GermanSuplex

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2009
    #20
    You're arguing that - to you - everything is too orderly and makes too much sense, etc. to be random and not some sort of intelligent design. What I'm saying is that those concepts of being "orderly" or whatever are just that - ideas. Even physics and all the stuff around the "framework" that you speak are concepts that we use. There's no such things as numbers. Those are ideas, man-made ideas to put things into structure and "concepts" that can be understood amongst people, like language is used to convey thought.

    So really, if there was no life and everything was floating about - or not floating - it would be no more significant than the "framework" that allows what we have in our universe.

    I think of it like a domino rally - you can have a rally of hundreds of thousands of pieces branching off into different directions and complex designs, but it all starts with one domino falling. Obviously, what created that first domino is where the debate comes in. But I don't see things as significant or insignificant. A mountain and river with trees and life, to me, is no more profound than a lifeless, desolate cold asteroid floating through space, it took the same "framework" so to speak to make that happen as did to make an ocean full of life.

    That said, while I don't believe in any biblical god, I'm agnostic. Don't know what happens, don't care. I live by the golden rule, makes sense and doesn't require a belief in anything. But I don't know, I could change my mind. Depends on where the evidence takes me. Right now, I just can't wrap my mind around a diety, for one simple reason that I thought of; a lot of people look at the universe and ask "how could this all come from nothing? It couldn't..." So they believe in a diety. However, it requires you to contradict the very reason why you believe in a diety in the first place, which is kind of a mind-****. Believing in God requires the belief in some sort of being that has emotions, thoughts, ideas, power, etc with no evidence of where he (or she or it) came from. Harder to grasp than the universe formed itself somehow.
     
  21. oldhifi macrumors 65816

    oldhifi

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2013
    Location:
    USA
  22. Krayzkat macrumors 6502a

    Krayzkat

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2011
    Location:
    UK
    #22
    We aren't that intelligent as a species because some of us want to believe in a psychopathic supreme being.
     
  23. Septembersrain macrumors 68040

    Septembersrain

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2013
    Location:
    Texas
    #23
    And some eat tide pods and snort condoms. I have no idea exactly how the universe came to be but I'm not ruling anything out.
     
  24. Krayzkat macrumors 6502a

    Krayzkat

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2011
    Location:
    UK
    #24
    Which is why as a species we are thick as sh*t.
     
  25. Fugabutacus macrumors regular

    Joined:
    May 10, 2010
    #25
    Let's not. The dumbest human is ahead of the smartest animal. You CAN'T complain about human intelligence. You CAN complain about human education... but HEY that's what our taxes are for, let's spend them right!
     

Share This Page