Something to think about on minimum vs living wage

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by tunerX, Apr 13, 2016.

  1. tunerX Suspended

    tunerX

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    #1
    A common point is that a living wage should allow a person to live a normal standard of life. I have seen some people argue that the minimum wage should equal a living wage. That may be workable in some areas and under certain circumstances if your employee is a single person that will never have children.

    Bernie's big fight is that people should receive a living wage. If that were the case, wages would be all over the board. The great minds at ESRI and MIT would cause havoc if minimum and living wages were chained.

    https://berniesanders.com/issues/a-living-wage/

    http://livingwage.mit.edu/counties/36045

    http://storymaps.esri.com/stories/2015/living-wage-map/

    Could I hire a single woman in Jefferson County at 11.04 an hour. Several months later she gives birth and now for her to maintain a normal standard of life I would be required to either pay her 24.58 (single parent) or 21.14 (2 parents). What happens when there is a divorce or a child dies. Should they be paid less?

    What about a single parent with 3 children? The genius' at MIT say a living wage is 42.44. Should I refuse to hire her because I own a McDonald's franchise and am hiring for a cashier position. What happens when you can no longer refuse hiring a person based on being a single parent?

    http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/13-14/bill/sen/sb_0401-0450/sb_404_bill_20130220_introduced.html

    A CA bill that protects familial status.

    What does “familial status” mean? SB 404 provides the following definition:

    "In connection with unlawful employment practices, “familial status” means an individual who provides medical or supervisory care to a family member. For purposes of this subdivision, “family member” means any of the following:

    (1) A child, as defined in Section 3302 of the Unemployment Insurance Code.

    (2) A parent, as defined in Section 3302 of the Unemployment Insurance Code.

    (3) A spouse, which means the partner of a lawful marriage.

    (4) A domestic partner, as defined in Section 297 of the Family Code.

    (5) A parent-in-law, which means the parent of a spouse or domestic partner.
     
  2. FieldingMellish Suspended

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    #2
    Complicated.

    Simplify: A job meant for kids getting some work experience is not meant to be worked by those older and expecting to live on those wages.

    Raise the wage = instant fewer jobs. Expecially with computers and robotics available now and those on the horizon.

    Answer? Cease the globalization and bring back trades and manufacturing jobs.
     
  3. aaronvan Suspended

    aaronvan

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    #3
    That's why a federal minimum wage is foolish. $10/hr (say) is not the same everywhere.
     
  4. steve knight Suspended

    steve knight

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    #4
    Bull there are plenty business have raised wages and are thriving. I just saw a micky Dees offering 11 a hour to start.
     
  5. tunerX thread starter Suspended

    tunerX

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    #5
    At what point does it become unworkable? 11 an hour at McD would not cover a single mother of 3. In my county the common, single McD clerk with 3 children would have to be paid 42.44/hr for it to be livable.
     
  6. bradl macrumors 68040

    bradl

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    #6
    Yet the numbers prove your case entirely wrong, and yes, I know this is an opinion piece.

    http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2016/04/13/why-poor-vote-theyre-billionaires

    In cases like those mentioned here, having that minimum wage and its increases competition, as those mom/pop shops can have a competitive advantage over those that have to offer minimum wage, as some that don't meet the requirements of the FLSA, don't have to offer minimum wage, and can hire more at a lower cost, keep their business running, and have the advantage over those like chains that have to offer minimum wage. And like Russell said, there hasn't been anyone yet to complain about that.

    BL.
     
  7. steve knight Suspended

    steve knight

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    #7
    No but min wage needs to keep up with inflation. It is way behind now
     
  8. tunerX thread starter Suspended

    tunerX

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    #8
    Then stop calling it a living wage. If it were only based on single people then it may be workable. To say that 15/hr in Duchess County NY meets a livable wage standard in Multnomah County OR does not involve logic.
     
  9. Renzatic Suspended

    Renzatic

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    #9
    Okay, people on minimum wage, of which there are far more now than there's been in a long, long time, aren't making enough to make ends meet, having to work two or more jobs just to stay afloat.

    The argument against raising the minimum wage is that it'll hurt businesses, and the usual response in opposition is to get rid of it entirely.

    Now what will happen if we do get rid of it? A lot of corporations, such as Wal-Mart, will probably start paying their cashiers and stockers around $5-$6 an hour. They sure as hell won't give them a raise. Best case scenario is that they'll keep wages the same.

    The usual reply is a supply-demand example. People won't work jobs that are only offering $6 an hour, they'll go elsewhere and find a better job.

    ...but since they're already working two jobs on minimum wage, they're not exactly getting pick of the labor litter as-is. What it'll probably do is end up creating a low end competition, where people flock to the jobs that are offering $7 an hour as opposed to those that are only offering $5. They're still faced with the same problem of not making enough money to improve their lives, just living paycheck to paycheck. Removing the minimum wage is a solution that solves absolutely nothing.

    So it seems to me that we've found ourselves in a situation where we have to choose to keep ****ing our unskilled workforce, and either keep minimum wage the same or rid ourselves of it entirely, or possibly **** our small businesses, and raise the minimum wage, making it even harder for them to compete with the Wal-Marts of the world.
     
  10. cfedu, Apr 13, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2016

    cfedu macrumors 65816

    cfedu

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    #10

    Has Sanders mentioned he would legislate a minimum livable wage?


    In Ontario, they is talking of making a "guaranteed basic income"

    http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/12/23/minimum-income-basic-income_n_6370458.html



    http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/02/26/ontario-basic-income_n_9328264.html


    I think minimum wage is a good idea, having that wage be liveable is another story as it depends on your definition of livable.

    My definition is livable is having a roof over your head, clothes and food in your stomach. If you have to live with 3 adults all working minimum wage to make that happen, so be it. Livable does not mean having your own apartment, a car, and an iPhone.
     
  11. steve knight Suspended

    steve knight

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    #11
    so any roof is enough any food is enough and any clothes are enough? so I guess a homeless shelter would fit into your idea pretty well. lets make american great give business a break and make all the poor homeless go america your great.
     
  12. cfedu macrumors 65816

    cfedu

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    #12
    Is that not livable?

    I never said to give business a break.

    What would you propose? Would you double minimum wage? If you double it to make it more livable, there will be inflation for everyone and you will be in the same position that you were in before. We should encourage people to get trained so that they can get the skill have a better quality of life.

    If you don't want to live in poverty, all you have to do is follow 3 rules. Finish High school, get a job and don't have children until you get married.

    http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba428
     
  13. steve knight Suspended

    steve knight

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    well that will make you successful worked for me. worked for my blind wife. sorry no matter how hard a person works there is not guarantee of success. the american dream is a hollow dream. I know poor people that work three jobs and it is still not enough. min wage needed to rise with inflation. it used to rise then it got stuck. being poor is expensive everything tends to cost more you pay more fees get worse loans more fees and it can just be a break even situation.
     
  14. cfedu macrumors 65816

    cfedu

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    Exactly there is no guarantee in life, you are only able to increase probability of success. I will say that if you decide to have a baby at 15, don't know who the father is, and drop out of school, you will almost certainly live the rest of your life in poverty.

    As for minimum wage keeping up with inflation, I wish that was always possible. Unfortunately, society has changed in the last 40 or so years which make it hard to do. 40 years ago, society was calibrated that a family only needed 1 salary for a family to have a certain standard of living. Today, with women making up almost half the workforce society has adjusted to paying everyone who works less. Does it suck? Yes it sucks, but that is how things happened and it will not change.

    Raising minimum wage will do nothing, a fundamental shift would be required to make meaningful change. Of the presidential candidates, the only 2 that I can see who may be able to bring this change would be Trump and Sanders. Trump is too unpredictable, so of the 2 Sanders would be the better bet IMO.
     
  15. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #15
    In the UK the living wage takes each family type as a proportion of the poor and multiplies the required wage accordingly.
     
  16. thermodynamic Suspended

    thermodynamic

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    #16
    I wonder how ancient pagans dealt with these issues since the post-postmodern market economy hadn't been invented yet.
     
  17. kapolani macrumors regular

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    #17
    If a fast food worker begins receiving a living wage - say $15 an hour - what about the teacher or some other position that requires skill?

    Will they get a pay increase? Everyone gets more money across the board?
     
  18. s2mikey macrumors 68020

    s2mikey

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    #18
    I agree with this. Remember in the "good old days" when people could get solid jobs right out of high school? The benefits were good, the wages were good & the security of that job was also pretty good. It was just....GOOD. Then, along came the awful concept of the lowest-common-denominator workforce. I dont care what the captalists call it - its slave labor and borders on pure servitude. Sure, the people working at these places might have it "better" than some other citizens in their countries but a guy with Stage 3 Pancreatic cancer is technically "better off" than a guy with Stage 4 pancreatic cancer. Both are screwed. See what I mean here? Its easy to say "oh those jobs are great for these people blah blah blah".

    When people are already completely miserable, its EASY to make it better for them. Its a bunch of crap. The USA would benefit sooooooo much from good jobs like this. Sucks.

    That all being said - Fast food and jobs like that were NOT designed to support families whatsoever. If there is one theme I keep seeing when they interview these "living wage" supporters its that they all seem to have multiple kids and are struggling to support them. Ya think? I hateto say this but people without the financial means to care for kids shouldnt be having them. Ouch - I said it. :)
     
  19. aaronvan Suspended

    aaronvan

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    #19
    They took their poor & homeless and tossed them in the bog.
     
  20. BoxerGT2.5 macrumors 68000

    BoxerGT2.5

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    #20
    Many unions in this country have their wages pegged to minimum wage (often based off 3 times the federal minimum). When it goes up, theirs either automatically goes up or it triggers their ability to collectively bargain again. The average union worker makes $22/hr. So some would wonder why union members are seen getting behind the $15/hr group when the already make more. Because that $22/hr will go to $45/hr. Whether they still have jobs in 2yrs is another story (if the company ups and moves).
     
  21. haxrnick macrumors 6502a

    haxrnick

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    #21
    This is something losers and failures say in an attempt to justify why they're failures.
     
  22. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    There are too many losers though. That's why people have voted for Trump, Cruz and Sanders.
    --- Post Merged, Apr 14, 2016 ---
    That is problematic. But I'm sure something that can be renegotiated.
     
  23. haxrnick macrumors 6502a

    haxrnick

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    #23
    Yes, unfortunately, or fortunately, the everyone gets a trophy crowd is slowly finding this out. Not everyone is a winner. Just time to sit back and enjoy the ride.
     
  24. BoxerGT2.5 macrumors 68000

    BoxerGT2.5

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    I would think so. A 50% increase in labor costs is a sure fire way to kick a companies ass in gear to look for alternatives.
     
  25. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #25
    Everyone gets a trophy was the status quo when America was a great power however. All boats were raised then.
     

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