Space travel brings us closer to God?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by supercaliber, Aug 2, 2010.

  1. supercaliber macrumors regular

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    #1
  2. Queso macrumors G4

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  3. eawmp1 macrumors 601

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    #3
    As he is a stated christian, getting older is bringing him closer to his god.
     
  4. flopticalcube macrumors G4

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    Being a fiction writer, he would know everything there is to know about (any particular) god.
     
  5. barkomatic macrumors 68040

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    Actually, he insists he is not a stated Christian--that's the label others have assigned to him. He seems to have a combined religious belief. Whatever works for him.

    Anyway, I think he may be right. It's hard to comprehend the totality of what's out there going to our little jobs, living in our little homes, and going about our various routines. I think that someday--far off--when we may be able to at least travel around our solar system it will provide a wider perspective that many of us lack here on earth.
     
  6. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #6
    If religious people would understand this very important truth, we might all get along much better.

    None of us know anything in the end. Live your life the best you can and leave others to live theirs. It is not up to the religious to tell others how to live or try to make their beliefs law.

    And how old are you supercaliber that you have never read Bradbury? How is that possible? Bradbury was required reading when I was in school.
     
  7. djellison macrumors 68020

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    I've been an ardent fan of space since I was a kid, I've worked with science data from spacecraft for a decade, and I now work in the space program doing visualization work. I've given dozen and dozens of lectures, looked at every single one of the 250,000+ images taken by the twin Mars Exploration Rovers.

    I've spent more of my life more involved in space exploration than 99.99% of people out there.

    Ray's opinion may be that all that takes us closer to God.

    My personal experience is the exact opposite. It increasingly renders the concept of a God patently ludicrous to me.

    And while I respect the guys work - this particular quote is just silly "We're moving toward more proofs of his creation in other worlds he's created in other parts of the universe"

    Can anyone provide ANY proofs of 'his creation', let alone 'more' proofs.

    The guy is clearly a man of faith and thus applies that faith to that which he observes. I am not, and thus do not.
     
  8. kernkraft macrumors 68020

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    It's not about knowledge, it's about faith and what you/they believe in. That is the area, where knowledge gets muddled up.
     
  9. supercaliber thread starter macrumors regular

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    Just curious, what would be an example of something you might see in space that would lead you to believe in God?

    What might you stumble upon in your daily work that would cause you to pause, anything?

    What if you discovered life elsewhere? My guess is probably not. But what then would you have to see in your studies that would prove to you that God exists?
     
  10. freeny macrumors 68020

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    I assume that would depend on which direction god is. it is possible to get further from god if you were to go the wrong way...
     
  11. djellison macrumors 68020

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    Evidence. Reliable, repeatable, verifiable evidence.

    To date - I have not seen a single thing that could possibly be considered evidence. No one has offered up anything by means of evidence. This guy is talking about 'more proofs'. Show me ANY proofs. Anything. Let's get every scrap of evidence out of the table and study it.

    You prove to me that it exists and show me how it exists and I'll agree that it exists. At that point, it's not belief anymore. It's common sense. That's the point. 'God' - deliberately - sits outside of anything measurable or observable, specifically so that belief can be maintained as no evidence can or will ever be forthcoming. That's the point. That's where there is intelligent design - design of a deity that sits above questioning, sits outside of evidence, sits beyond observation. It's very very clever. It's also very very man made as is evident give the exceptionally strong geographic correlation between different areas of the earth and belief in different deities.

    Lest we forget - you are atheistic toward thousands and thousands of Gods that man has believed in over the history of civilization. I simply believe in one less than you.
     
  12. supercaliber thread starter macrumors regular

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    I guess what I was asking was not for you to describe the conditions upon which you would actually believe in God, "reliable, repeatable, verifiable evidence", but what that actual evidence might be.

    I find this question particularly difficult to answer, why?? because once you have observed and measured anything, that new thing you observed now automatically falls out of the realm of what you and most others consider to be God-related. So what then could you possible observe and measure that would prove there to be a God? This is a legitimate question, because before you can test for God you have to come up with some test that when observed proved that God existed. What would be that test? I personally have never thought of a test that would remove all doubt.

    As far as my views on all Gods this planet has ever envisioned, I am not sure I discredit them all, typically just pieces of them all. I would actually be more inclined to believe that most of them have elements of truth.
     
  13. djellison macrumors 68020

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    #13
    My point is that the design of God is explicitly such that it can not be tested or proven. That's how it's meant to be - that's the point of it. If you

    I'm yet to see any coherent description of what 'God' is, what the power, ability, jurisdiction, purpose, form, function of this 'God' is. Until I see a clear cut description of what it is I'm being asked to forecast possible evidence for - I'm shooting in the dark.

    If one said 'well - God answers my prayers' - If there were overwhelming evidence that prayer works ( there isn't - infact, there's evidence it does not work at all) for example then one might have something to study. Something worth investigating. God controls X, God did Y, God will do W if you do Z. Define 'God' then we can test for 'God'.

    Of course, at this point, every single Christian, in unity, goes 'Oh - but he'll know you're just trying to test him, he wont do it'. Very very convenient. That's the cunning thing - God is a convenience.


    Straight to hell for you then - false idols, no other god than me etc. etc. BAD Christian. Burn in hell for all eternity. :rolleyes:
     
  14. supercaliber thread starter macrumors regular

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    Well you don't believe in God or Christ so how would you know..., and do you really want to debate scripture? That does not seem to be your interest.

    Believing that truths are all around us does not mean i kneel at the alter of every religion, I simply prefer to find common ground in religious beliefs rather than seek division.

    I agree that testing for the power of prayer seems difficult. However, I would argue that such a test even if it proved that prayer actually worked would not prove that God exists.

    Personally, I think that we will find the fingerprint for God in biology and the study of life itself, if we haven't already.
     
  15. flopticalcube macrumors G4

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    It is actually quite easy and has been tried. It has been shown to be ineffectual. If it could be proven, I'm sure more experimentation will be conducted in the future, it would IMO increase the probability of the existence of some sort of controlling influence or what many would call god.

    Back on topic, I'm not convinced that the exploration of space will affect our believe in a divinity one way or the other but then I guess it depends on what you believe this divinity to be.
     
  16. .Andy macrumors 68030

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    #16
    Intelligent design again.

    To me it's just the same god of gaps argument. An updated version of if we climb a mountain high enough or build a ladder large enough we can meet god in the clouds.
     
  17. djellison macrumors 68020

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    How, exactly?

    And your refusal to define 'God' as I requested is noted. It appears God is now an elusive convenience for the scared.
     
  18. supercaliber thread starter macrumors regular

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    Well as I have said before, intelligent design is a brand and a label to which I do not like to bind myself. I am not saying that there are not parts of intelligent design that I don't agree with, however, I don't want to be tied to them just because I think species are something that can be designed.

    As you know, in recent news man actually manufactured DNA and inserted that DNA into a cell, the cell took on the traits of the manufactured DNA, and the creator actually put his signature in the DNA. Since you are a scientist, can you offer some examples of what a God signature might look like in DNA? How might DNA itself prove that God exists?

    I find it interesting that man has learned to manufacture DNA in a few decades, what will we be doing with lifeforms in a thousand years. Hell the book of Genesis might not seem so outlandish in our lifetimes.
     
  19. djellison macrumors 68020

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    Err - are you now asking us to prove your God exists? If you think he exists - what evidence do YOU have to show us? DNA is such a mess, I think it's rather self evident that it wasn't designed by any one being. It evolved, grew, mutated, parts made redundant etc etc. Ever heard of junk DNA? You think THAT was designed? Yeah - right.

    And sorry - if you claim that parts of biology have been designed by some intelligent being - like the label or not - you ARE subscribing to Intelligent Design.

    Can you give us some specific examples of where you think intelligent design has occurred - where's the thing that makes you think this. What is it that you find impossible to comprehend by any means other than being designed by your God.
     
  20. supercaliber thread starter macrumors regular

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    Well i am not a scientist, but my guess is that eventually we will muck around with DNA enough to know exactly how it works. When we do, we will know.

    Definition of God, see Christ
     
  21. supercaliber thread starter macrumors regular

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    Yes, study Monsanto or any genetic engineering for that matter.

    http://www.monsanto.com/biotech-gmo/asp/topic.asp?id=EnhancedQualityofLife

    We have already proven intelligent design exists, WE did it ourselves!

    We are but novices, what makes you think we won't be in complete control of genetics in a few centuries.
     
  22. .Andy macrumors 68030

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    #22
    A rose by any other name...

    Which was a fantastic piece of science. But just because one can manipulate nature (which is what was done) does not mean that it therefore follows that it's plausible that life was created by supernatural beings. We have a fantastic understanding of life in evolution - no supernatural entity need be involved.

    I din't recall claiming to be a scientist. Nor will I be drawn into hypothesising how a supernatural entity might egotistically "sign" their work.

    A non-sequitur. The book of genesis will never not seem outlandish because it if frank nonsense.
     
  23. supercaliber thread starter macrumors regular

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    Supernatural to me only means we don't understand how it happened. Maybe a better way for you to digest the question would be to say, how might we discover that some Earth DNA was actually spliced together by an alien Monsanto.

    I actually don't think God literally signs his work. However, if we understand patterns that show up in how we engineer plants to be immune to disease, maybe we can see similar patterns in DNA that we as humans have never touched ourselves.
     
  24. djellison macrumors 68020

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    #24
    So God is a Jewish dude who died 2000 years ago?

    I asked specifically - what is the power, ability, jurisdiction, purpose, form, function of this 'God' .

    What can your 'God' actually DO. What is it responsible for. You want us to come to you with specific tests to establish the existence of this deity. This deity has been described as everything from a powerless spirit, to a being taht answers prayers and actually designed all species on earth about 6000 years ago.

    Which 'God' do YOU believe in? What abilities and powers does it have. What has it done. What can it do. Until we know these specifics, you're asking us to test something you've not defined.

    It's like me saying "Test for acidity".

    You would say "Test what for acidity?"

    And then I'd go "You know - test... for the opposite of alkalinity"

    You would still be asking "Test WHAT?"

    So - again I ask you to be specific in defining this 'God' of yours.


    What on earth makes you say that? How have you established what I think on the issue when I have not actually commented on what scientists may or may not be able to do. . Yet again, a religious person puts words in my mouth. I'm talking about YOUR claim that there is or will soon be evidence of divine intervention within biology. What evidence is that. What form does it take. Be specific.

    Of COURSE there is human intervention in genetics - you think natural selection would create a pug dog? A moneymaker tomato? High-yield corn?
     
  25. djellison macrumors 68020

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    You mean... the disease resistance that species can develop by natural selection and the disease resistance that we can engineer might look similar.

    SHOCK HORROR. All we're doing is trying to accelerate and direct natural processes, or replicate them ourselves.

    Are you honestly trying to suggest that proof of 'God' will lie in the existence of disease resistance in plants?

    We have done the whole human genome... what should I be looking for within it to find your 'God'. The bit of DNA that can cause autism, the bit that's a predisposition toward life threatening pediatric congenital heart defects, or the nice hereditary high risk of breast cancer? Which bit do you think your God designed?
     

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