Split rulings on Ten Commandments displays

xli_ne

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The Supreme Court on Monday struck down certain Ten Commandments displays inside courthouses but gave more leeway when such exhibits are on the grounds of public property.
I personally don't agree since its been like this for years and years and now people seem it should change, but whatsever :rolleyes:
 

rainman::|:|

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being as only two of the 10 commandments have any similarity to our current law, it seems wholly inappropriate even in a historical sense. Perhaps eventually they'll print the commandments inside a contact lens, so zealots can stare at them all day long. Meanwhile, the rest of the world is busy trying to make progress, thanks.
 

FriarTuck

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rainman::|:| said:
being as only two of the 10 commandments have any similarity to our current law, it seems wholly inappropriate even in a historical sense. Perhaps eventually they'll print the commandments inside a contact lens, so zealots can stare at them all day long. Meanwhile, the rest of the world is busy trying to make progress, thanks.
There are a lot of us "zealots" who are unhappy with the abuse of the 10 Commandments as political symbolism. But that doesn't mean it was the court's decision to make, and it doesn't make your suggestion that only two of the 10 commandments "have any similarity to our current law" plausible.

Nonetheless, I'm curious to know which two you think still "have any similarity to our current law" as I would like to know which of these three you have left out: perjury, murder, or theft? And adultery is still a crime in some Western nations and is a court-martiable offense in the US Military.
 

mpw

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Has the US still got "In God we trust" on their currency notes?

When's the vote to have that removed?
 

stridey

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mpw said:
Has the US still got "In God we trust" on their currency notes?

When's the vote to have that removed?
The theory is that "In God we trust" refers to a sort of general God not specifically associated with Christianity in particular. Yeah... right. The reason the 10 commandments are different is that they reference a specific religion (or pair of religions).
 

Sun Baked

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mpw said:
Has the US still got "In God we trust" on their currency notes?

When's the vote to have that removed?
But the building this ruling comes out of most likely has that type of writing/art carved into it all over the place. :p

The ten commandments are all over DC in the form of I, II, III, ... IX, X on the pages of tablets.
 

mpw

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stridey said:
The theory is that "In God we trust" refers to a sort of general God not specifically associated with Christianity in particular...
That would be even worse, a society whose government chooses to believe in bits of various religions only as accepted by all so as not to offend anyone. Except of course that offends the logical atheists among us so they pretend they don't and say there's no link between Church and State.
 

CorvusCamenarum

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rainman::|:| said:
being as only two of the 10 commandments have any similarity to our current law, it seems wholly inappropriate even in a historical sense. Perhaps eventually they'll print the commandments inside a contact lens, so zealots can stare at them all day long. Meanwhile, the rest of the world is busy trying to make progress, thanks.
I had to go back and actually read the 10 Commandments before I could say anything intelligent, but more than two have found their way into civil law. For the record, I'm going on the laws of my home state, which sadly happens to be Alabama:

Murder: This is a big no-no anywhere.
Theft: A similar but lesser no-no.
False Witness: Another lesser no-no (also known as perjury)
Adultery: Might vary in other states, but in Alabama, adultery is still a crime, even though it's just a misdemeanor.
Sabbath Day: Again, it varies in other states, but in some places here, we have what are known as blue laws. Cullman County, AL is a good example, where on Sundays, businesses and the like must remain closed, with the exceptions of police and fire, hospitals, gas stations, and any other community essentials.

That's five out of ten right there. I could probably make some extended arguments for a couple others, but that would be reaching.
 

ChrisBrightwell

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xli_ne said:
I personally don't agree since its been like this for years and years and now people seem it should change, but whatsever :rolleyes:
You disagree w/ the higher courts saying, "We know you've been doing this for years w/ no problems ... but you can't do it anymore."?

Blacks are free and women can vote. Do you have problems there, too?
 

hulugu

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CorvusCamenarum said:
...
Murder: This is a big no-no anywhere.
Theft: A similar but lesser no-no.
False Witness: Another lesser no-no (also known as perjury)
Adultery: Might vary in other states, but in Alabama, adultery is still a crime, even though it's just a misdemeanor.
Sabbath Day: Again, it varies in other states, but in some places here, we have what are known as blue laws...
So, that's half of the entire document. The Ten Commandments isn't the only place from which our moral and legal codes stems and thus is about as important as the Code of Hammurabi. The problem is the inherent religious application of the other five commandments—and I would say the Sabbath day is just a secular application of a religious tenet.
Furthermore, the additions of "In God We Trust" as well as the "...under God indivisable.." part of the Plege of Allegiance were both added after the fact. The line "In God We Trust" was added to coinage in 1865 by an act of congress. The Pledge of Allegiance was changed in 1954 by a campaign of the Knights of Columbus.
None of these things were considered to be a part of the republic under the Constitutional Congress and thus I think the original strictures of separation of church and state was meant by our founding fathers.
 

ChrisBrightwell

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hulugu said:
The Ten Commandments isn't the only place from which our moral and legal codes stems and thus is about as important as the Code of Hammurabi.
FINALLY. Someone said it.

I've been all for a monument portraying these commandments as the historical and philosophical foundation of our current system of laws -- but only if it's displayed alongside the Koran, Hammurabi's Code, and half a dozen other equally significant documents.
 

stridey

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ChrisBrightwell said:
Your arrogance is astounding.
I don't see how it's arrogance. God (with a capital G) specifically denotes the deity of a monotheistic religion, but the theory that defends the use of the word "God" on the US currency is that it denotes an abstract belief in "something." My "yeah.. right" was simply to say that I think that's false. I believe the use of "God" on the bills is in fact an inherently Christian statement.

Your shortsightedness is astounding. Try relaxing a bit. :D
 

hulugu

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ChrisBrightwell said:
FINALLY. Someone said it.

I've been all for a monument portraying these commandments as the historical and philosophical foundation of our current system of laws -- but only if it's displayed alongside the Koran, Hammurabi's Code, and half a dozen other equally significant documents.
Not only those, but the Magna Carta, the writings of Aristole, Plato, Kant, and the formal systems of the Roman Republic. I think the reason everyone likes the Ten Commandments is because it's a simple, easily digestable document. But, what would be more important—in the sense of a Christian document—would be the Sermon on the Mount. And, now we have created a display so massive that it could only be kept in a museum and maybe doesn't fit so well in a state courthouse.
 

rainman::|:|

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okay, i wasn't considering "bearing false witness", because i always thought that was more about lying in general, which itself is not illegal. But we'll go literal and give it to you, that's 3. Adultery laws are unconstitutional, and have not successfully been used for decades-- every time one is invoked, it's tossed out, leaving a handful of southern states proudly waving a dead moral law. And sunday laws are on a city-by-city basis... not even laws, ordinances. There are no laws prohibiting work on Sundays (thankfully, as the world would cease to function), and although there are laws prohibiting certain activities on Sundays (these are mostly being tossed out or unwritten, but some are withstanding challenges), none of these laws mention "keeping the sabbath holy" as a reason-- In fact, none give a motive. Nor does the Bible suggest these methods as ways TO keep the sabbath holy.

So without taking out the two personal-liberty ones that would be there regardless (not killing and stealing are certainly concepts that predate Christianity... So it's difficult to say we got those from the commandments) you've got 3, less than a third of the documents. I agree with the above, that makes it about as relevent as the Code of Hammurabi.
 

Aquaporin

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stridey said:
I don't see how it's arrogance. God (with a capital G) specifically denotes the deity of a monotheistic religion, but the theory that defends the use of the word "God" on the US currency is that it denotes an abstract belief in "something." My "yeah.. right" was simply to say that I think that's false. I believe the use of "God" on the bills is in fact an inherently Christian statement.

Your shortsightedness is astounding. Try relaxing a bit. :D
God implies the god of the Abrahamic faiths. The term god, however, implies just a general greater being.
 

hulugu

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ummmm...sacrilegious

Azadre said:
God implies the god of the Abrahamic faiths. The term god, however, implies just a general greater being.
So you mean, during intercourse if you say oh god, oh god you're not saying oh Yahew, oh Yahweh, but rather oh greater being, oh greater being.

I'll agree with that.
 

hulugu

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monkeydo_jb said:
With nothing to believe in, you all must live hollow lives.

Jesus loves you. No matter how you feel about him.

Then why did he beat the crap out of me in the 8th grade? I mean Jesus Ramirez was a big dude, and I did throw a rock at his head, but that was a serious thumping.

Seriously, no one ever said they didn't lack belief, simply that it may not belong in a secular enterprise like the US courts. Furthermore, many of our founding fathers were agnostic, their faith was tenuous and yet thoughful. They questioned man's ability to understand god and were suspect of the dogma that surrounds organized religion. Some also believed that the spiritual was sullied by its connection with the profane aspect of a court system and thus the two should be kept apart. Even Jesus was disturbed by the combination of the temple with the money-lenders.
Lots of people manage to have powerful, meaningful spiritual beliefs without a whiff of the Ten Commandments. Like many Hindus, Buddhists, Animists, Taoists, Shintoists, etc. It's not the only moral document, even in Christianity.
 

zimv20

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monkeydo_jb said:
With nothing to believe in, you all must live hollow lives.
so if one doesn't believe in jesus, one necessarily believes in nothing at all?

and what of Nihilists?
 

IJ Reilly

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hulugu said:
Lots of people manage to have powerful, meaningful spiritual beliefs without a whiff of the Ten Commandments. Like many Hindus, Buddhists, Animists, Taoists, Shintoists, etc. It's not the only moral document, even in Christianity.
Jesus loves them too, just not as much.