Start Up Visas, What do you think?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by NT1440, Jan 2, 2010.

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Opinion on Start Up Visas?

Poll closed Jan 17, 2010.
  1. Good Idea

    33.3%
  2. Bad Idea

    16.7%
  3. Not sure

    50.0%
  1. NT1440 macrumors G4

    NT1440

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    #1
    I'm basically just bringing attention to an article I read that I thought was very interesting, and personally I feel its a great idea that should be included in any upcoming immigration reform.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8417510.stm

    Any thoughts or opinions on this kind of program? We all know that tech will continually engrained into our lives in the future, therefore Tech IS the future, why not get that talent here?

    Feel free to rebut, there probably are downsides I haven't thought of here.
     
  2. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #2
    There has never been an opposition to keeping talent here, I am all for this idea. We have a problem with illegal immigration, mostly from a country with very little emphasis on college education. If we were receiving illegal college graduates it likely wouldn't be a problem at all.
     
  3. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #3
    There would, because you'd have nobody to pick your fruit or mow your lawn.
     
  4. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #4
    On the contrary, maybe some Americans would mow their own so they wouldn't be overweight.

    Also we have 10% unemployment, people WOULD pick fruit, our prices might rise a bit, but at least employers wouldn't be breaking the law to get cheap labor.
     
  5. GfPQqmcRKUvP macrumors 68040

    GfPQqmcRKUvP

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    #5

    How do other countries manage then?

    Zombie hit the nail on the head. We're taking in illegals who place a massive burden on our financial system without paying that much in taxes. Even if these people were made legal through amnesty, the income derived from their taxes just wouldn't be that great. Other countries have far better public schools and more financially stable healthcare systems. It's no wonder; most have fairly closed borders and give citizenship to people with technical skills the country needs. We don't even know how many people are in our country, it sure makes it hard to make cost estimates and revenue projections without this information.
     
  6. localoid macrumors 68020

    localoid

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    #6
    The concept of attracting and bringing in global expertise, ranging from skilled craftsmen to entrepreneurs, worked extremely well during the American Industrial Revolution didn't it? No wait... few people alive today have any idea about any of that or even have 1/2 a clue about American history... never mind.
     
  7. NT1440 thread starter macrumors G4

    NT1440

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    #7
    Well you know, you could elaborate instead of coming off so condescending, food for thought.
     
  8. localoid macrumors 68020

    localoid

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    #8
    My condescending response was in response to the "we don't need no illegals" mentality prevalent in the tread. You raised a question worthy of discussion more germane to the topic... Intelligent discussion of any sort of immigration issues with xenophobic citizens of a nation of immigrants usually proves difficult.

    It would be hard to find any industry in the US that didn't rely on global expertise for new ideas or new production techniques during its formative years. And that practice continued throughout the American Industrial Revolution and the decades that followed. From learning how to better mine coal, to making better coke for the steel mills, to learning how to make better steel, to making better trains and automobiles to haul it all, to building better airplanes from which to drop the newly created atomic bombs...

    One could break-down any American industry into great detail. Enough detail to easily write a book on each industry in fact. But let's briefly consider coal, for example -- after all it was coal that largely fueled the American Industrial Revolution: Most America coal companies of the 1800s learned the industry via immigrants from Great Britain where coal mining was widespread in the 13th and 14 centuries. Many of early American coal companies were started, at least in part, with English capital, and managed and operated by citizens of Great Britain with previous experience in the industry. Some of the earliest scientific studies of the American coal reserves were conducted by people from Great Britain. When building and operating a battery of coke ovens, used to turn coal into coke which was used in steel production, American mines again relied heavily on expertise from Great Britain. Those companies needed someone familiar with time-proven design techniques not to mention needed skilled stone masons able follow those designs and build them. To haul the coal to market, the country relied heavily on global expertise which included George Stephenson, builder of the first successful steam locomotive in America. Stephenson was born in the coal mining village of Wylam, England. The list goes on, and on... and includes people, needed from common laborer through various levels of expertise, from counties throughout the world.

    This sort of sharing of information, ideals, and techniques is still used extensively throughout American industry. We currently have numerous immigrants working in this country (legally) under employment-based Visas. Why anyone would think the open exchange of ideas with others (from around the world, for example) is a bad thing is beyond my comprehension...
     
  9. NT1440 thread starter macrumors G4

    NT1440

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    #9
    I couldn't agree more whole heartedly.
     
  10. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    Penryn
    #10
    Easy to say for someone living in a country where there's a more or less endless supply of legal Polish plumbers, Bulgarian builders and Romanian roofers. The EU has made it a lot easier for the UK to find temporary and unskilled labor.

    I'll be the first to admit that North America needs a similar continent wide employment system. Getting to that point however is something else entirely. How many years has the UK been fighting off overtures from the Continent?

    The German phrase "Inselaffen" while mildly derogatory, does underline Great Britain's unique island stature, shared by only a handful of other nations.
     
  11. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #11
    We do not need illegals, if someone is renowned in their field there usually isn't an issue obtaining a visa or being able to work in the US. Other countries have high if not higher standards of entry than we do, yet I rarely see anyone complaining about their policies.

    Also its not xenophobia, its trying to attract skill sets that will help our country.
     
  12. localoid macrumors 68020

    localoid

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    #12
    What did the question posed by the OP have to do with the issue of "illegal immigration"? It was about the "streamlining" the existing EB-5 visa for immigrant investors. To quote from the article:

    The use of foreign capital helped fund many industries during the American Industrial Revolution and many of the companies so funded were operated and managed by non-Americans who had industry-specific expertise and experience during the era. It all seemed to work out well for the US -- famous "captain of industry", Andrew Carnegie, was an immigrant from Scotland, for example. But of course today, by some people's "high standards" for a "desirable" immigrant that would "help our country" Carnegie wouldn't make the grade.

    Why not try to streamline the system to attract immigrants entrepreneurs who have good ideas and solid financial backing?
     
  13. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #13
    Funny you should pick those three nationalities: it was only the UK, Denmark and Eire which chose to allow unrestricted access to workers from those countries immediately on their accession.
     
  14. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #14
    Exactly, immigration isn't a straightforward issue.
     
  15. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #15
    I already said that I agree with the idea to attract immigrants in the first post, it must be done legally though. We take on millions of illegal low skill labor workers who will likely add to our poverty problem when we should be trying to get high skilled workers/entrepreneurs from places with excess human capital.
     
  16. NT1440 thread starter macrumors G4

    NT1440

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    #16
    Isn't that essentially sorting out immigrants by class and choosing which we want to enter the country legally?
     
  17. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #17
    Not necessarily, places like China have excess college grads with no way to put their expertise to work, we could attract many of these people who would likely be from a lower class, but might be able to reach middle class status if their productivity was fully realized.

    That being said I think we are having some issues of our own with underemployed people, but that should turn around sometime in the future.
     
  18. NT1440 thread starter macrumors G4

    NT1440

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    #18
    What is your opinion on the uneducated who wish to enter the US legally? Should they be turned away because they don't have the skills we are looking for this year? Should those who do have an education take priority?
     
  19. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #19
    Anyone with education would always take priority, if the person has shown a promising record they should be able to easily get a student visa to study in the US. I had many friends from russia, japan, and korea who stayed in the states after graduation.

    Nearly every country discriminates based on education, work experience, etc, when allowing people in. We need to attract more math/science/tech/health.
     
  20. localoid macrumors 68020

    localoid

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    #20
    Unfortunately, in the U.S. the term "underemployment" lacks a universally accepted definition. The way we officially measure both unemployment and underemployment in this country leaves much to be desired, so we never get a really complete picture of how bad (or good) things really are in the job market. Historically, the percentage of persons "underemployed" is much higher than those "unemployed", even during the best of economic times.

    The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics defines an unemployed workers as those out of work and have looked for work in the last two weeks. The underemployed consist of three categories: those working part-time but who want to work full time (involuntary part-time workers), those who want to work but have been discouraged from searching by their lack of success (discouraged workers), and those who are neither working nor seeking work at the moment but who indicate that they want and are available to work and have looked for a job in the last 12 months.

    As a result, we have no official system for counting how many people in the U.S. with a college degree are working for minimum wage (full time) at McDonalds, someone that Joe Average Citizen would likely consider to be "underemployed".

    See: the Bureau of Labor's Alternative Measures of Labor Underutilization for States for examples of what is actually measured.
     
  21. MacNut macrumors Core

    MacNut

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    CT
    #21
    Isn't a big problem in this country that we outsource our jobs to other countries. So if we offer more visas to foreigners are we not just outsourcing the jobs inside the country? Can we not find these educated qualified people in house? Before we look for an outsider to fill these positions lets train the people in the US first.
     
  22. jav6454 macrumors P6

    jav6454

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    #22
    Hmmm, this issue is something that ends up affecting me, a Visa holder. Currently I hold 2, yes 2. One for leisure and business (a B1/B2) and another for studies (F1). According to the laws and conditions of my visa, after graduating I am entitled to a 1 year OPT (Optional Training Program), in which I work legally in the US for 1 year and gain expertise in my area of study. At the end of that OPT I will be given a choice, if the company likes me, they can appeal to the US Immigration service and make me a resident and finally after 3 years a citizen or if they choose not to, simply give me 90 days to leave the country.

    Everyone I know who has been given an OPT has been given the first option, stay in the US. So in that respect, I think the system for students is fine. However, if you start your own company as an entrepreneur, well, there is a problem like the one in that story. There are really no laws or conditions set in stone. If you wish to do business all you have is a B1/B2 class Visa that can hinder your work. It would be nice to see something like that. Not all of us wish to return to our countries, not because we don't like it or want to go back, but because the business opportunities here in the US exceed any others back home.

    That all being said, leveling the field for these entrepreneurs helps out since jobs that are created by these guys by establishing their company or business will in the end prevent the outsourcing of US jobs to other places.
     
  23. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #23
    I believe the UK's system is set up something like that.
     
  24. localoid macrumors 68020

    localoid

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    #24
    The sticking points you mentioned are among those that critics of the program raise. The H-1B visa allows U.S. employers to temporarily (3-6 years) employ foreign workers in "specialty occupations" requiring "highly specialized knowledge". H-1B doesn't require that employers to make extensive recruitment efforts locally, but "H-1B dependent" employers must make "good faith steps to recruit U.S. workers". However, the U.S. Department of Labor (DOL) is given the responsibility of ensuring the program doesn't adversely affect U.S. workers.

    Many employers contend that America's (global) competitiveness depends on companies being able to select the best (global) talent. The greatest numbers of workers hired under H-1B occurred during the dot-com boom. One of the largest employers of H-1B workers is Microsoft, and Bill Gates has been a vocal supporter of expansion of the program. In regards to training American citizens, part of the fees employers pay for H-1B filings are earmarked to educate and train U.S. workers, which according sources I could find quickly find online amount to about $500-million per year going towards training of U.S. workers.

    H-1B Visas: The Biggest Users
    Foreign tech workers touchy subject in U.S. downturn
     
  25. flopticalcube macrumors G4

    flopticalcube

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    #25
    As a recipient of both the UK's visa and the H-1B in the US, I think that although different on the surface, both end up operating the same on a practical level. At least that was the way it was in the 90s. My UK employers simply made a job description to fit me once they wanted to hire me so it was fairly easy to beat the "must find a local worker first" rule. Not sure if they could get away with it now but that's the way it was then.
     

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