Student walkout

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Thomas Veil, Mar 14, 2018.

  1. DanielDD, Mar 18, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2018

    DanielDD macrumors 6502

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    #76
    First, it's not 100x more likely (in 2017, the ratio was 9:1).

    Second: restrictions on guns prevent more deaths than those of in mass school shootings.

    Third: there are restrictions on alcohol sales. It is illegal to sell alcohol to anyone under 21. It is also illegal to sell alcohol to anyone drunk. (buying a beer is subject to higher restrictions than buying a semi-automatic weapon)

    Fourth:
    Underage drinking = their own actions
    Mass shootings = they are at risk anytime, anywhere
     
  2. FX120, Mar 18, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2018

    FX120 macrumors 65816

    FX120

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    #77
    Uh, like a total of ~40 people were shot (not all died, and not all were kids) in school shootings in the US last year, including the murder/suicide event that had one collateral death. Meanwhile the CDC reports an average of 4300 kids die each year due to underage drinking.

    Likewise, banning alcohol would also save more than just children's lives. There are roughly 88,000 alcohol related deaths in the US each year.

    You can see how effective the 21+ restriction is considering 1 out of 3 teens 13-18 have drank in the last 30 days, and minors consume 11% of all alcohol in this country. Do you really think there are more restrictions on who can buy beer than guns? Here is a list of prohibited persons for firearms: http://www.rip.uscourts.gov/rip/supervision/firearmpossession/FirearmPossessionProhibition.pdf
    Care to find a similar list for alcohol?

    Finally, drinking and the stupidity associated with it touch far more than just the person drinking. Last year in my area, a drunk 16 year old crossed over the median on a highway, killing not only herself and her two passengers, but also a family of five traveling in the opposite lane.

    Sources: https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/overview-alcohol-consumption/alcohol-facts-and-statistics
    https://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/fact-sheets/underage-drinking.htm
    http://www.rip.uscourts.gov/rip/supervision/firearmpossession/FirearmPossessionProhibition.pdf
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States
    --- Post Merged, Mar 18, 2018 ---
    And you can see how effective that is.

    And to be logically constant, in no way is alcohol a good idea either.

    Bring back the 18th amendment! /s

    Edit: Forgot the CDC link.
     
  3. I7guy macrumors Core

    I7guy

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    #78
    that certainly narrowed it down in 2016; to zero.
     
  4. Thomas Veil thread starter macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

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    #79
    Many.
     
  5. RichardMZhlubb Contributor

    RichardMZhlubb

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    #80
    Yup. I’m going to the march in DC next Saturday with both of my kids and probably hundreds of thousands, if not millions of other kids.
     
  6. RichardMZhlubb Contributor

    RichardMZhlubb

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    #81
    There’s a difference between “clearly flawed, but capable” (Hillary) and “grossly, utterly, beyond comprehension incompetent” (Trump). This notion that both candidates were equally unacceptable in 2016 is nonsense. Hillary was never my first choice, but she was never going to push us to the point we find ourselves in today, where the credibility of the entire US government has been eviscerated, both at home and abroad. The United States is an international laughing stock, and any rational American should be thoroughly embarrassed by this train wreck.
     
  7. I7guy macrumors Core

    I7guy

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    #82
    That's true what you way, but imo, Clinton was clearly flawed and incapable. It doesn't matter the degrees of incapable. And hey, my opinion is just as valid as anybody elses, and frankly the Clintons needed to get out of the political scene.

    But if I look around, I see someone at least attempting to take on the big, bad issues as opposed to being Robin Hood. And I'm not sure where we are today. Gun violence existed before Trump, as did economic issues, immigration, deficit, gun control etc, etc, etc. One thing I'll say though the market overall doesn't seem to care about the Trump presidency and for that I am thankful.
     
  8. dukebound85 macrumors P6

    dukebound85

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    #83
    You’re kidding right? Alcohol kills many times more people than deaths by mass shootings.......and last I checked, shooting people is illegal as well. Your logic doesn’t make sense
     
  9. Vanilla Ice macrumors 6502

    Vanilla Ice

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    #84
    I wonder how gun grabbers would feel if the government put a stop to the sales of tobacco and alcohol and made it illegal? Or made it so 1 pack of cigarets and 1 six pack of beer a month with a scan of your I.D. card would go? I'm sure it wouldn't go so well. But that's just me.
     
  10. mooblie macrumors 6502

    mooblie

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    #85
    Agreed.
     
  11. Raid macrumors 68020

    Raid

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    #86
    I'm not going to keep going on about alcohol consumption as a more prevelent issue not only for the reasons that @Bug-Creator has mentioned, but as for your 4,300 deaths (while accurately reported) was not accurately investigated. The footnote to that CDC number is further explained here where it states the nature in which the person (aged 21 and under, so a bit beyond high school) died. Of those causes (by my count) total 2207 {I took out Air transport, homicide (by another), child maltreatment, infant deaths (by excessive drinking by the mother) and accidental causes like drowning, falls, fire, hypothermia, and other non-alcohol related poisoning} are relevant inclusions. In what remained was an average 2207 deaths annually; of which Motor vehicle traffic crashes accounted for 71% of those followed by suicide at 22%, rounding out the top three came alcohol poisoning at 2%.

    Also your number of ~40 people shot was grossly limits the data on one side. As a comparison to the numbers you quoted (and I adjusted) it would be better to compare all firearm deaths from ages up to 21 over the same period (2006-2010). I pulled the data from the public CDC database and found during that period there were 823 deaths due to accidental discharge (but I'm going to disregard those like I did the alcohol related accidents), 6,131 suicides (as the alcohol related suicides are part of the above 2207 number), there were 15,494 homicides and 288 deaths due to firearms with 'undetermined intent'. This gives us an average of 5,478 firearm deaths over the same period, over the same age group, with as close to the same exclusions I could get.

    Thus firearm deaths (from these numbers) would be 2.5 times higher than that of alcohol for the age group in question. Feel free to check on these.
    --- Post Merged, Mar 19, 2018 ---
    I wonder how many gun strokers still think that more restrictions mean the boogeymen will take their gun from under their pillow. :rolleyes:
    As for booze and tobacco, its a regulated industry that pays additional taxes due to the externaliies of consuming the product... so instead of restrictions on firearms guns do you want to pay a mass-shooting tax?
     
  12. Vanilla Ice macrumors 6502

    Vanilla Ice

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    #87
    Liberal government = boogeyman yes
    Liberal government = wanting more gun restrictions just to stroke their ego.

    You throw out extra tax for use of alcohol and tobacco? Millions of deaths yearly tied to those two are fine just as long as we give it a sin tax and we’re cool. 6 million a year around the world die due to tobacco use alone. Seems to be working well. Looks like mass shootings are far out of the conversation when compared to death rate.
     
  13. Raid, Mar 19, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2018

    Raid macrumors 68020

    Raid

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    #88
    America by their standards just had a liberal govt... how many guns were snatched up?
    Their ego will be stroked only when the gun deaths go down.

    I "throw out" taxes as it's one method to alter consumer behaviour for social benefit. You can look up the base principle here, and a British example of cigarette taxes (which they note generates £10B in extra revenue, that would ideally go into cessation programs, enforcement and healthcare). It's not 'fine', only an attempt to "balance the books" on external impacts. So a tax on firearms and ammo would curb some demand at the same time provide money for victims of gun violence, and enforcement (to name a couple). Till America actually does something it will be at least just as bad as it is now.
     
  14. Rhonindk macrumors 68040

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    #89
    Then again, here in Cali it is a method to raise money. ;)
     
  15. Raid macrumors 68020

    Raid

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    #90
    Oh yeah there's are whole econ courses on the politics on taxes... the famous example of taxes being for a specific purpose but the government becoming dependent on the revenue was our Income Tax. Which was brought into law in 1918 as a way to pay off WWI! ... That reminds me I have to file soon... a hundred years later it's certainly not about paying off the war.
     
  16. Mousse macrumors 68020

    Mousse

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    #91
    Mass murder and suicide are two different animals. People want to kill themselves with alcohol and tobacco, well that's their choice. No one chooses to be shot by a crazed gunman.
     
  17. Vanilla Ice, Mar 19, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2018

    Vanilla Ice macrumors 6502

    Vanilla Ice

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    #92
  18. Raid, Mar 19, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2018

    Raid macrumors 68020

    Raid

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    #93
    ... hence the extra taxes they pay and penalties faced for breaking the regulations about smoking and drinking...

    Now if America could only do that with firearms... you know cause high velocity lead is hazardous to everyone's health too.
    --- Post Merged, Mar 19, 2018 ---
    Also alcohol and smoking is a slow suicide (save Alcohol poisoning, at a rate of about 411 a year), with plenty of opportunity to stop and get better. Studies have indicated an impulse issue with suicide and firearms, and a high rate of 'success' (2013 had over 22,000 firearm suicides).
     
  19. Rhonindk, Mar 19, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2018

    Rhonindk macrumors 68040

    Rhonindk

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    #95
    You need to look at that in the same vein.
    • People want to kill themselves with alcohol and tobacco, well that's their choice. No one chooses to be shot by a crazed gunman
    Should Read
    • People want to kill themselves with alcohol and tobacco, well that's their choice. Except when they take others with them when they crash and die.
    Or Could Read
    • People want to kill themselves with alcohol and tobacco, well that's their choice. They could also shoot themselves.
    The latter two are all too common.
     
  20. AlliFlowers Contributor

    AlliFlowers

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    #96
    No march permit here, but there will be a rally on Saturday. I suspect it will be packed. Looks like most of my faculty/staff will be there, and I'm encouraging our students to attend.
     
  21. AlliFlowers Contributor

    AlliFlowers

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    #98
  22. webbuzz macrumors 68000

    webbuzz

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    #99
    Sheriff wasn't shot, he did the press conference. No mention of a deputy being shot. Shooter killed by SRO.
     
  23. Mousse macrumors 68020

    Mousse

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    #100
    There are telltale signs of someone driving drunk. Cops can pull over a guy over for driving drunk. Are there telltales signs of a guy about to go on a shooting spree, other than him carrying a gun? Cops can't stop a guy just for carrying a gun.
     

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