Sturgeon to call for a new referendum on Scotland independence

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by juanm, Mar 13, 2017.

  1. juanm macrumors 65816

    juanm

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    #1
    • She will continue to stand up for Scotland’s interests in the talks...

    • ... But she will act now to ensure Scotland has a choice at the end of this process.

    • Sturgeon says she will act now to ensure Scotland has an independence referendum at the end of the Brexit process. She says she will ask the Scottish parliament to vote in favour of this next week. She says the details of the referendum, including the timing, must be for Scotland to decide.

    • She says it should take place when the options are clearer than they are now, but while it is still possible for Scotland to stay in.

    • She says she expects the outcome to be clearer by next autumn. So that would be the earliest date.

    • She says it should take place between the autumn of 2018 and the spring of 2019.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politic...un-on-second-scottish-independence-referendum

    And for those who like alternative facts:
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4307522/Sturgeon-s-fresh-bid-Brexit-obstacles.html

    A few quotes from other people who have perfectly described the situation:

    "There was more clarity in that one speech from Sturgeon than in about 9 months worth of Theresa May's speeches."
    "The whole ********* is down to an internal party power struggle the victor of which wasn't even involved! So not only did neither of the contenders (Johnson & Cameron) win, the country got ****ed too!"
    "It's like a couple bickering over where to take the kids on the weekend but ending up torching the car through pure ineptness."
     
  2. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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  3. arkitect macrumors 601

    arkitect

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    #3
    I agree.

    What might also happen is that a few of the Westminster Brexit cheerleaders might find their (small) minds a tad more focused now that they're faced with the break up of the "United" Kingdom.
     
  4. juanm thread starter macrumors 65816

    juanm

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    #4
    Yup. Last time a vote to stay in the UK was a vote to stay in the EU. Oh the irony.

    Scotland will probably have to go through the process again, but it will also probably be expedited.
     
  5. The-Real-Deal82 macrumors 601

    The-Real-Deal82

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    #5
    I think so too but I think it needs to happen in order for us to get on with life. It seems to be used as a threat and the nationalists are up there are not going to get the chip off their shoulders until they are given the chance to run their own country without help. I think the rest of the UK will build on Brexit and despite being a Remain voter myself I hope it works out and Scotland are left wishing they hadn't opted for an EU on the brink of collapse.
     
  6. obeygiant macrumors 68040

    obeygiant

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    #6
    The problem with Scotland is that its full of Scots!
     
  7. juanm thread starter macrumors 65816

    juanm

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    #7
    That's not a fallacy
     
  8. Eraserhead, Mar 13, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2017

    Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #8
    The problem is that Theresa May has done to Scotland what the EU did to Britain (and the other member states) with Maastricht.

    There was ample room for compromise on Brexit. Virtually no one particularly likes the EU and the Brexit campaign actually promoted the Norway option.

    The other issue is that the rebels against the establishment in Europe are pretty empty (see UKIPs lack of plan) and are all Trump supporters.

    The sad truth is we clearly could leave the EU well - see eureferendum.com - but I'm not sure we will at all.
     
  9. jerwin macrumors 65816

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    #9
    In the Grand Tour, Jeremy Clarkson explained.

    "The Rules are very simple. If you're English, and you become brilliant, or do something brilliant, you remain English.If you're Scottish or Welsh, and you do something brilliant, the English decide that you are, in fact British."
    (Series 1. Episode 11 Italian lessons).

    At the moment, Scotland is full of Brits. After independence, a great many of them will remain in Scotland and become Scottish. There's really nothing to be afraid of.
     
  10. zin macrumors 6502

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    #10
    She is going to destroy Scotland. These clowns were totally wrong with their plans for an independent Scotland the first time around. Their projections were highly dependent on overestimates of North Sea oil and they'd be in a hole bigger than Greece had they voted to leave the first time.

    Nicola Sturgeon needs to explain why destroying relations with the EU is bad but destroying relations with the UK, your biggest export market, is good. She has no plans on how an independent Scotland would deal with a 10% budget deficit, currency, or trade. The EU has already stated that an independent Scotland could not join fast-track, they'd have to go through the normal route of over a decade of negotiations, and they'd have to either join the Euro (disaster) or tag along with another country's currency as an unofficial user (also a disaster).

    She is going to sink Scotland. It really seems this whinging about another referendum is there to distract from the fact that she has no plan.
     
  11. ActionableMango macrumors 604

    ActionableMango

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    #11
    IIRC Spain and Belgium would both want to veto the EU admission of a breakaway region, and it only takes one to veto.

    Does Scotland have a strategy to address that issue, are they simply hoping for the best, or are they planning to be independent from both UK and EU?
     
  12. Fancuku macrumors 6502a

    Fancuku

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    #12
    The English will probably be happy. 4 million (or whatever Scotland's population is) less mouths to feed. :p
     
  13. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #13
    You could quite easily replace Scotland with Brexit in your post...

    Except that to be fair the experts have been wrong about Brexit so far...
     
  14. Scepticalscribe, Mar 13, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2017

    Scepticalscribe Contributor

    Scepticalscribe

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    #14
    This was inevitable once it became clear that Mrs May wished to pursue nothing other than the hardest of hard Brexit strategies. Actually, Mrs May could have played her hand a lot better - with both Scotland and the EU. She could also have accepted the perfectly sensible amendments passed by the House of Lords without damaging her position, but chose not to do so.

    And, while Spain will have stated misgivings, there are other precedents; the Czechoslovak divorce, the embrace of some of the states of the former Yugoslavia. This means - leaving aside Scotland's own strong "remain' vote in the Brexit referendum - that Scotland's case is not as weak as some here would seem to suggest.

    Actually, I believe that the leadership of two of the three Scottish parties (the SNP and the Tories) puts the leadership of every Westminster party in the shade.
    --- Post Merged, Mar 13, 2017 ---
    I expect that to change over the coming year or two.
     
  15. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #15
    The most obvious EU city for the City to move to is Edinburgh. As they are already there and it has (currently) an identical regulatory regime.
    --- Post Merged, Mar 13, 2017 ---
    Well let's see, I think there's a good chance you'll be right. But May may also take several steps backwards.
     
  16. Scepticalscribe, Mar 13, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2017

    Scepticalscribe Contributor

    Scepticalscribe

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    #16
    Brexit is one thing, but Mrs May has - to the surprise of many - remained wedded to her Home Office prejudices and instincts - and sought the most intransigent of exits, deliberately nettling and antagonising negotiating partners in Europe and elsewhere.

    Scotland has a strong case, - and current conditions are nothing like what they were in 2014 - and it is astonishing that Westminster has not even acknowledged the transformed landscape - political and psychological - in Scotland.

    There is also the fact that Scottish political and social culture is traditionally more egalitarian, which meant - historically - it tended to vote Labour. Nowadays, much of that - expressed as a political preference - has transferred to the SNP. However, there are no circumstances that this is going to translate into support for an administration in Westminster comprised of Tories that seem arrogant and condescending and contemptuous of Scottish concerns, and dismissive of Scottish interests. So, this is not just about differences over Brexit - it is also about being able to express differences over the political and economic and social complexion of Scotland.
     
  17. unlinked macrumors 6502a

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    #17
    All the polls I have seen say Scotland doesn't even want to have a referendum so it seems a little rash to assume it would pass even if it happened.
     
  18. juanm thread starter macrumors 65816

    juanm

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    #18
    Just yesterday one of the honchos of the spanish PP (the ones most opposed to Catalonia's independence) stated that they wouldn't veto Scotland's adhesion to the EU.
     
  19. dogslobber macrumors 68020

    dogslobber

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    #19
    Didn't they bankrupt themselves last time and go cap in hand to England pleading for help. The union with England was the result. What makes them think they can survive without England in this day and age? If the numbers are to be believed, England over subsidizes the Scots so the Scots actually take more than they give.
     
  20. unlinked macrumors 6502a

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    #20
    I wouldn't take something one MEP says as something set in stone as Spains policy.
     
  21. Cole Slaw macrumors 6502a

    Cole Slaw

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    #21
    Not sure I get this.
    Doesn't Scotland do far more trade with the rest of the U.K. (like 4 times as much I read) than with the E.U.?
    What kind of math are they using if they think 1 is greater than 4?
     
  22. MadeTheSwitch macrumors 6502a

    MadeTheSwitch

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    #22
    What happens to the U.K. nukes? Where do they move them to?
     
  23. juanm, Mar 13, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2017

    juanm thread starter macrumors 65816

    juanm

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    #23
    The barons in the PP are not just MPs. They are the ones who dictate the policies.

    Also, more importantly, they are spineless and will do whatever the majority of the EU says, as long as it doesn't hurt their personal agenda.

    Right now they stand to win if Catalonia moves -slightly- towards independence, as that would create backlash in the Unionist camp, and they would capitalise on it.
    --- Post Merged, Mar 13, 2017 ---
    Are you seriously taking the early 18th century as a reference for your reasoning?
     
  24. steve23094 macrumors 68000

    steve23094

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    #24
    Even if they manage that hurdle Scotland's budget deficit is way too high.
     
  25. windowpain macrumors 6502a

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    #25
    Is she also demanding they play the six nations match again?
    It wasn't the result she wanted..so best of three, yeah?
     

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