Sturgeon to call for a new referendum on Scotland independence

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by juanm, Mar 13, 2017.

  1. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #26
    It probably also made economic sense for the Irish to stay under rule from London.

    I fundamentally don't think it matters for Scotland, either May will actually now backtrack, or she will press ahead with hard Brexit and Scotland will leave as its wishes weren't taken into account.
     
  2. takao macrumors 68040

    takao

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    #27
    the same math the UK did when it decided "yes" to brexit.

    In a nutshell
    2014: England: "we are stronger together, we are your biggest trade partner, and you can stay in the EU which would be uncertain without us", Scotland: "OK"
    2016: EU: "we are stronger together, we are your biggest trade partner", England: "bugger off", Scotland: "Wait, what?"

    The irony sure is apparent. The same arguments in favour of staying in the EU were used by Westminster as arguments to Scotland staying in the UK 2 years earlier.

    Also pointing to Spain preventing Scotland to join: It's a different situation if a country is already a member of the EU with regions trying to secede and trying to gain a quick route into the EU or a country outside of the EU having a region secede and then joining.
    Neither Spain or Belgium blocked Slovenia, Slovakia or Croatia
     
  3. border terrier macrumors regular

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    #28
    Sturgeon needs to start governing for the benefit of Scottish people rather than obsessing over independence. SNP is a one trick pony with no plan for anything. UK government should stop a 2nd referendum until after Brexit. Then if they vote to leave, good luck and good riddance, with little oil revenue, no use of the £ and hopefully a hard border! Can we deport all the Scots afterwards?

    As for the 6 nations, keep em in, always nice to score 60+ points.
     
  4. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #29
    That clearly isn't true as they have governed Scotland for a while.
     
  5. zin macrumors 6502

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    #30
    And I voted to remain and said the same thing in the EU referendum thread.

    Scotland is not a special country. It will get no preferential treatment from anybody. It has no international negotiating experience, no monetary policy experience, and no plan for the things that make a country a country (trade deals, currency, budget, etc.). Nicola Sturgeon is duping the Scottish people and she should be ashamed.
     
  6. sim667 macrumors 65816

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    #31
  7. zin macrumors 6502

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    #32
    The SNP are anti-nuke pacifists. If they vote for independence, the nukes will be moved to another Royal Navy base. Or maybe they'll build another one. Scottish independence could be a real job creator for England and Wales!
     
  8. sim667 macrumors 65816

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    #33
    Are you talking about 310 years ago?

    Things have changed a bit since then.
     
  9. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #34
    Scotland has to leave as a matter of honour though. London has ignored the concerns of its people. Beyond giving the government a kicking that's fundamentally the reason people voted for Brexit.
     
  10. steve23094 macrumors 68030

    steve23094

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    #35
    That's weird because five posts ago you said the SNP has 'governed Scotland for a while'.
     
  11. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #36
    Both those statements are true...
     
  12. zin macrumors 6502

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    #37
    Nicola Sturgeon should potentially sink her country because their reputation would otherwise be offended?

    The "easy" solution to this whole thing is to federalise the UK. Scotland can become an essentially sovereign entity within the UK as a state or province. Then they can control all but a few things that'd still be under the control of Westminster. The 'devolution max' option for England, Scotland, Wales, and NI.

    I've a feeling they still wouldn't be happy.
     
  13. border terrier macrumors regular

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    #38
    Quite badly though.
     
  14. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #39
    They seem to keep winning. So not that badly.
    --- Post Merged, Mar 14, 2017 ---
    Except that its foreign affairs where the difference lies. And Scotland voted to stay in by a supermajority.
     
  15. juanm thread starter macrumors 68000

    juanm

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    #40
    [​IMG]
     
  16. zin macrumors 6502

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    #41
    Then let them have their independence. They can join the back of the queue for the EU, potentially being vetoed because of being a prior constituent of a prior member state, and destroy their country in the process.

    At some point they have to consider the situation reasonably, not just stamp their feet because they (and I) lost the referendum.
     
  17. takao, Mar 14, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2017

    takao macrumors 68040

    takao

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    #42
    IMHO such constitutional reform in 2014 would have been obvious choice (AFAIK Westminster even campaigned with "having more say" promises to scotland) and yet once the referendum was done there was zero incentive for Westminster to give up power.
    If a constitutional reform were made prior to 2015 we very likely wouldn't have to talk about brexit and independent scotland today. Ironically the UK has quite a few democracy deficits themselves: first past the post system,Unelected queen, unelected house of lords and currently unelected PM, no dedicated local representation chambers for england/wales as a region, NI and scotland with very little say

    A few months ago when scotland asked for having a say about amendments in regards to brexit Sturgeon was rebuffed quite sternly. It would have been a great situation for Theresa May to reel in any scottish complaints pre-emptivly by involving the scots in the process, yet ignored the potential dark clouds on the horizons.

    Not her first or last political blunder. She needs a miracle to last the Brexit talks.
     
  18. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #43
    Hard Remain would have been wildly inappropriate too.
     
  19. dogslobber macrumors 68040

    dogslobber

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    #44
    The Scottish nation isn't interested in independence. The last referendum said as much and the posture of voters was that they were more interested in which deal was better financially than having an independent nation. Let me restate that, they placed not being impacted financially as more important than independence. If you do your math, you will see that independence absolutely will cause your standard of living to plummet. Then there's that aspect of them refusing to give up the English currency. And then there's no oil left.

    So there's all these little issues which will impact the mentality of the Scottish people when it comes to voting. They are overcautious and not willing to give up the status quo. The English know they're weak in this regard so will call Sturgeon's bluff by giving her the referendum she desires and the result will be the same. Sturgeon then has to resign and that problem is solved finally.

    For the Scots it's as simply as this: Money matters. Freedom does not.
     
  20. smallcoffee macrumors 68000

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    #45
    I don't think it'll happen, but we'll see.

    It'll be interesting to see all those who were against Scottish independence, say, a few years ago come out in support of it now post-Brexit.

    I think the more smaller and independent governments we have, the better off the people are. It's hard to be engaged in a government, say like the United States, when the center of power is so far away, and opinions on things vary widely across the country.

    I don't think it's fair to impose something like, nationalized healthcare (no matter who important I think it is) on people who, even though they would be disproportionately benefited by it (Alabama for example), don't want it. Just as I don't think they irrational climate change deniers should have a say in how California regulates emissions from vehicles.

    If you look at the countries where people are most happy, what you'll find is that the majority are not large nation states.
     
  21. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #46
    If only money matters why did we ban slavery? And why did the Irish go independent?
     
  22. unlinked macrumors 6502a

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    #47
    I gather slavery isn't really that profitable compared to industrialisation. Also Ireland is richer per capita than the UK.

    Not that I really trust economists or money.
     
  23. dogslobber macrumors 68040

    dogslobber

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    #48
    The more they 'change', the more they stay the same.
     
  24. VulchR macrumors 68020

    VulchR

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    #49
    I'm not so sure. Most people in Scotland want to be in the UK and the EU. The problem is now that they are forced to choose. Most people in Scotland find Brexit a colossal act of stupidity brought about by English nationalism, and they're not sure they want to be the minority in country dominated by small-minded people throwing their toys out of their pram.

    There are also some Americans... ;) Most of the Scottish people and English people I have met are friendly decent people ... until they start talking about each other.

    If the people of Scotland come to the conclusion that Scotland is going to be sunk by moronic Tories, UKIP, Lib Tories and Labour who?'s, what do they have to loose? At least their mistakes will be theirs. I can't vote in the UK, but there is such a difference between Scotland and England that I see some sense in Scottish independence. The UK as a whole faces ruin at the hands of people looking backwards, and there is no comfort on having a good cabin in a sinking ship.

    I don't like that aspect of the SNP at all. Anybody who knows about history will realise that Scotland controls the approaches to the North-eastern Atlantic, Norwegian Sea, North Sea, and the Baltic. All along the coast where I live (Fife) are tank traps and bunkers in the coastal dunes that were built in WWII in case of invasion. That threat will always be there because of Scotland's geographic position. Norway paid the price in WWII of thinking its remoteness would protect it.
     
  25. arkitect macrumors 603

    arkitect

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    #50
    Which is why I still think (dependent on the correct noises from the EU ie. not vetoing Scottish membership etc) that there is a far greater chance of Scotland voting for Independence this time round…

    Anyway, time will tell.
     

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