Sturgeon to call for a new referendum on Scotland independence

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by juanm, Mar 13, 2017.

  1. Zenithal, Mar 14, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2017

    Zenithal macrumors G3

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    #76
    Legal tender is a legal term. US currency is legal tender. If a business owner wants to, they can deny payment in cash and require coins or refuse payment by that person outright. A creditor may not refuse all forms of legal tender. If their area laws allow them to refuse business with an individual, like they do in the US, they may exercise that right. In England, a business owner may happily take in Scottish notes, but because they're not legal tender, they're not obligated to. However, they will lose that business. A Scot visiting England can have their notes exchanged by any bank that issues English pounds. It's not difficult to understand. Scottish notes aren't considered legal tender in Scotland either, yet they're still accepted. American checks are not legal tender either, yet they're accepted without haste. The BoE site also states that single and two pence coins are legal tender up until a single or combined amount of 20 pence. Anything extra is not legal tender when paying a debt. English bank notes aren't considered legal tender in Scotland, yet they're still accepted by businesses if they're not living in the dark about it.

    http://edu.bankofengland.co.uk/knowledgebank/what-is-legal-tender/

    And people, mainly the elderly, who enjoy keeping money at home:


    In the US, all coin and cash up to $100 denomination is considered legal tender. Any special issued notes, coins, gold, silver, bars of precious metals, checks, credit card payments, debit card payments, et al. are not considered legal tender and may be outright refused. A business or individual is well within their right to refuse high denominations of legal tender outright without falling to civil suit. They can refuse all legal tender or none from your person if they offer another payment method, or they can refuse service to you.


    Legal Tender ≠ Legal Currency

    The various banks in the UK have agreed the currency circulating is legal currency. Not all currency is legal tender.
     
  2. steve23094, Mar 14, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2017

    steve23094 macrumors 68030

    steve23094

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    #77
    You did a quick volte-face. Just a few moments ago you said:-

    ... which is factually incorrect and people spreading this FUD is the reason you see morons like this arguing with English shop workers who are perfectly within their rights to refuse Scottish notes.



    Other than that you can rattle off as much unrelated information as you like. I have already made the only relevant point.

    Are Scottish & Northern Ireland banknotes "legal tender"?
    In short ‘No’ these banknotes are not "legal tender";


    http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/banknotes/Pages/about/faqs.aspx#sandni

    I'll take the Bank of England's word for it. But thanks for coming.
     
  3. Zenithal macrumors G3

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    #78
    Neither are old English notes. I'm done with you, kiddo.
     
  4. unlinked macrumors 6502a

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    #79
  5. dogslobber macrumors 68040

    dogslobber

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    #80
    It must be confusing to have the mixture of those notes in Scotland. I wonder why the Bank of England allows them to be used in Scotland if that country has its own currency. Not sure what the exchange rate should be either.
     
  6. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #81
    Legal tender is a fairly meaningless term as it only applies to debt...

    Personally I've never had a huge issue spending Scottish notes, but they do like to check them for fakes as they often aren't sure.
    --- Post Merged, Mar 14, 2017 ---
    The banks already have offices in Edinburgh...
     
  7. fat jez macrumors 68000

    fat jez

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    #82
    Answer me a simple question. If England is carrying Scotland, why are they so desperate to keep Scotland in the UK?

    I assume you are basing your deficit on a couple of factors. Number one is that a lot of a Scottish goods ship out of English ports. When this happens, the revenue and taxes are recognised mostly in England. Secondly, Scotland has to pay a percentage of the loans raised by Westminster as well as a percentage of other items that are considered to be of national importance - 2012 Olympics, HS2, London Crossrail, etc. That's quite a financial burden. Both of these combine to hit the deficit figure you mention but Scotland had no say in them.
     
  8. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #83
  9. fat jez macrumors 68000

    fat jez

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    #84
    If there is anything politics in the U.K. has taught us over the last few years it's that Polls are incredibly inaccurate! There are large chunks of the demographic they don't really reach. Ipsos Mori put it at 50:50 and they can't both be right http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...ttish-independence-second-referendum-campaign
    https://stv.tv/news/politics/1382623-stv-poll-half-of-scots-would-vote-for-independence/
     
  10. lowendlinux Contributor

    lowendlinux

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    #85
    The question I guess is; Does Scotland have the economy and infrastructure to separate and will the larger EU step in and fill any voids if that separation occurs?

    I also wonder if this rattling of Scottish independence going to weaken the UK's hand at the bargaining table? I don't think the UK is going to be playing a strong hand even if they were united behind this decision, disunity cannot possibly help.
     
  11. weckart macrumors 601

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    #86
    It is not just an problem in E&W. I tried changing Scottish banknotes in Germany years ago. The bank refused point blank to take them. I think the forgery issue is probably the key one rather than any pointless bickering about legal tender.

    It would probably be less of a problem if there were only one Scottish and N Irish issuer each but there are several and designs change frequently. It is a lot to keep up with if you only see the notes very infrequently.
     
  12. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #87
    It will certainly weaken the UKs hand. Maybe May should have compromised.
     
  13. unlinked macrumors 6502a

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    #88
    Such as?
     
  14. steve23094, Mar 15, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2017

    steve23094 macrumors 68030

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    #89
    I have no idea. I mentioned earlier that perhaps it's nostalgia? Most politicians are in favour of the Union, it's the sort of ancient history they're interested in. In this aspect it reminds me of parliamentary traditions that are pointless, impractical, expensive and the general public don't give a stuff about them.

    If you polled the UK public if they wanted to keep the Union most would probably shrug and say 'sure'. But if you asked them how far would you be willing to go or how much would you be willing to pay for the Union the answer would likely be 'not far' and 'not much'.

    I don't care if Scotland leaves the Union. Self determination is a right. I also believe in respecting the results of a referendum. Things have drastically changed with Brexit so a second independence referendum is reasonable. If the SNP lose this one they should crawl back under the rock they emerged from because the whining is incessant. Given that the SNP's raison d'etre is independence this isn't likely to happen.

    I do not know value of port taxes generated by Scottish goods but recorded in England. Do you have figures?

    I consider the Olympics were a waste of money. I predict HS2 costs will greatly overrun, is also a waste of money and won't bring anywhere near the financial windfall proponents claim. Better to spend those funds on many local infrastructure projects. So I don't like paying for it either. An argument could be made for Crossrail because although it will disproportionately benefit London, London supplies a disproportionate amount of the country's tax take.
     
  15. sim667 macrumors 65816

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    #90
    Oil.
     
  16. steve23094, Mar 15, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2017

    steve23094 macrumors 68030

    steve23094

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    #91
    ...and in Ireland (and most major cities around the world), yet they still have large branches based in London. You're disregarding why they made those decisions in the first place. Those advantages are not magically going to disappear and reappear in Scotland if the Union splits.
     
  17. unlinked macrumors 6502a

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    #92
    Most of the "Scottish" oil will belong to Shetland and Orkney once they become independent after they leave Scotland after Scotland leaves the UK.
     
  18. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #93
    I think Scotland has rather more finance than Ireland...

    Alliance Trust, Aberdeen Asset Management etc etc.
     
  19. fat jez macrumors 68000

    fat jez

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    #94
    That would be my guess. Especially the untapped fields in the Irish Sea that the MOD blocks access to currently due to the nuclear subs.

    There's also the large amounts of green electricity generation - hydro, wind and wave. I'm not sure the UK would hit its emissions targets without those.
     
  20. steve23094 macrumors 68030

    steve23094

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    #95
    --- Post Merged, Mar 15, 2017 ---
    You're also disregarding how important the City is to England. Once outside of the EU if there was any real danger in losing that business the Government would make massive concessions to those banks. Do I love that UK tax income is disproportionately dependent on financial services? No. Do I love the thought of even less regulation to let the bankers run wild and paying even less tax? No. But it is what it is.
     
  21. fat jez macrumors 68000

    fat jez

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    #96
    Actually, I probably have that wrong about the country of export. It appears that revenues are attributed to Scotland correctly, although the taxes raised will probably still go to the Exchequer in Westminster. I would need to dig further to confirm.
     
  22. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #97
    Except that the banks would still have to follow European regulation to do business with Europe so...

    And if the banks could relocate to Scotland it will be easier for the EU to play hardball on finance.
     
  23. VulchR macrumors 68020

    VulchR

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    #98
    In the US it is illegal to refuse US dollars. I find it odd that in the United Kingdom that bank notes from different countries in the union are not legal tender. That makes Scottish independence simple: the Scottish pound is not the same as the English pound.

    I have never seen UK notes from any country (Wales, Northern Ireland, England) be turned down in Scotland. Perhaps it's greed, or perhaps its just good manners. In any case, I wonder how the English would feel if their notes were not accepted here in Scotland. I would imagine that a proportion would have a tantrum and say things that would make them look like twats. ;)
     
  24. fat jez macrumors 68000

    fat jez

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    #99
    Technically, English bank notes are not legal tender in Scotland either (nor are Scottish notes).

    This link http://www.acbi.org.uk/media/sni_notes_factsheet_nov12_copy1.pdf is taken from http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/banknotes/Pages/about/scottish_northernireland.aspx
     
  25. VulchR macrumors 68020

    VulchR

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    #100

    Understood. However, the fact that this anomaly has not been corrected indicates the United Kingdom is not as united as some believe. I wonder if there are any other countries that have multiple currency systems within a national border.
     

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